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Board » General Discussion » Mark rounding

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Posted by
NOR_Jawik


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2008-08-31 20:55:18
2011-07-18 05:22:53 - Re: Mark rounding
ISAF Right of Way Rules.

I'll never forget the first time I attended SOL and sailed after ISAF Right of Way Rules in the South Atlantic. Took a couple of days before I discovered that no one else went according to ISAF :-)
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2011-07-18 06:30:56 - Re: Mark rounding
I'm glad you mentioned Rule #2 Paul as that was almost the entirety of my point...

Sportsmanship....

OK - PetrM claims he/she does not sail IRL - but honestly - the arrows on, and the rhumblines themselves, make it pretty darn clear how to round a mark... (IMO)
AND it seems there was plenty of shouting in the chat at the time.
So really no excuse to not know the correct way to round a mark. If we are going to get so technical with what is WRITTEN as SOL rules, then where will it end? Boatsitting (dare i raise it) is so ambiguous it isn't funny... We all know (or should) the spirit of what is required for sailing a course. And ignorance of a rule is never excuse to break it. And like i said - I find it very hard to believe the current #2 overall does not know how to round a mark properly...

76T - if you round twice clockwise then once anti - well you have wasted so much time that is that really a consideration? And i was more meaning it would prevent immediate unwinding like happened here - mark was 'Leave to Starboard' but was actually left to Port...
Like any IRL regatta the NOR *should* form part of the racing instructions...

===================

ISAF right of way rules on SOL would just be silly...
No to mention next to impossible to accurately implement in a discrete time step sim like this (or any! unless said time step is, like, 100ms) - consider that boat length would need to be known by the server - by you - by the client to accurately represent the boat such that you could avoid it (and what about zoom?)... AND what happens if a boat whose skipper has not logged in for 24hrs breaks the rule?? Auto 360° penalty by the server? Hmmm - even more for the server to do... Not to mention that often an auto-pen would result in more infringements!
No, bad idea all round...
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-18 11:34:13 - Re: Mark rounding
Thanks for your comments about Right of Way rules.

I agree too difficult for new SoL sailors, and those who work, travel and go sailing a lot IRL.

Nothing like floating the odd idea about as we stumble through life.

Cheers





--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-18 11:36:09 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
A2


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2009-10-26 00:39:42
2011-07-18 13:32:06 - Re: Mark rounding
* This field is required. *

--- Last Edited by A2R at 2012-02-10 07:15:08 ---
None so blind
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-18 14:14:57 - Re: Mark rounding
Rule 2 is often misunderstood and thrown around in situations like this. Normally, someone feels aggrieved because someone is doing something "unfair" that is permitted by the rules. Class associations have a great time with this one: "Johnny's boat is unsportsmanlike because he has a new carbon fibre tiller and the rest of us have stock wood ones" is not a rule 2 violation. Either the Class rules specify tiller material or they don't.

For the most part, it applies to boats that intentionally disadvantage another boat without benefiting from doing so (you are allowed to legally slow another boat so long as your race or series score is defended or improved)

Ramming another boat on purpose so that they can't complete the regatta would be an extreme example. Close-cover blanketing a boat while the fleet passes a more subtle one.

Rule 2 doesn't apply to situations covered by other rules (that is what they are *for*). Breaking one of them and then not taking a penalty is a rule 2 violation.

The course that some of the fleet took was absolutely correct according to the server and everything written on SOL, hence no rule 2 violation. If we don't like it we need to fix it.

All sports/games have just enough rules (yes written ones) so that everyone has fun. It's fine to argue that "SOL shouldn't need rules" but if so we shouldn't holler when the non-existent rules get broken.
Posted by
76Trombones


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2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-18 14:25:47 - Re: Mark rounding
And from a complete devil's advocate point of view:

PetrM was leading the race and saw that there were two legal options. If he had sailed on the East side, he would have lost position had the chasing boats exercised the option. He had no way to know what they'd do. Yes he could have sailed on and crossed fingers, but if another boat had ducked behind him and won I'd be defending *that* boat's actions under the rules and based on recent precedent. It's a race.

The problem is the rule, not the result, and all boats involved in this and every other rule dispute (routing, boatsitting) have always said that they will comply with any changes.



Posted by
PetrM


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2008-12-31 13:00:19
2011-07-18 19:49:06 - Re: Mark rounding
Believe me or not:
I did not have intention to brake any known rule.
I was at lead at the mark and just one boat was within striking distance. My move (within SOL rules and outside ISAF) did not help me past any boat.

If you believe, that while being in the lead I broke unwritten rule from IRL race sailing intentionally and dishonest myself within SOL community for just another win, feel free to judge.

Thank You for education about ISAF rules. I will apply ISAF rule for my future rounding whether will be enforced by server or not.

I would like this kind of incident and personal suicide could not happen to others in future and their learning curve would be much easier than my. To eliminate future incidents we should appreciate value of 76Trombones input to this case.
It should be helpful update code for mark rounding (as stated) as I believe automatic rule enforcing is necessary. Because solving protest by committee would waste time of all participants. This time should be used for much useful thing (such as development of SOL :-) ). Another step is to update rules in manual.
Until rules enforcement will be updated, it should be helpful setup races with knowledge of current limits of server code.

Best regards
Posted by
mustang_sally


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2011-04-23 14:01:51
2011-07-18 20:05:23 - Re: Mark rounding
Petrm

As soon as you backtracked on yourself, you were told by many others in chat that you wern't allowed to do it, but you chose to ignore them, and you didnt even bother to ask why, or even acknowledge those who were talking to you. So this is why you have left a lot of bad feeling with most sailors in SOL.
So personally I believe that you sailed in a very unsportsmanlike manner as you had plenty of time to right your wrong but you decided to sail on!
Posted by
Tempest


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2009-06-16 17:44:17
2011-07-18 20:39:31 - Re: Mark rounding
Although i was not present at all, just a some small points .

Some people do not follow chat as they are racing so indeed they will not answer.

If the mark says rounded and stay's rounded while backtracking why should you doubt your decision if you thought it was OK ?

And even if you knew it was a loophole in the programming aren't you allowed to use that loophole as for instance SLI jumping.

Seems some people forget it is a GAME.

Tempest

Posted by
NZL_undercover


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2009-07-31 03:29:32
2011-07-18 21:14:21 - Re: Mark rounding
I think the mark issue is very easily sorted out as far as island roundings go...........have a second mark which forces you to go the right way so that there is no other option:ie Mark 1 and 1a simple:_)

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