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Board » General Discussion » Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??

Posted by Smo Posts 80 Registered at 2009-05-02 21:49:04	2011-04-02 20:33:36 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Rod I don't see any point having more boats on me. Just more trouble. But I'll bet some people have. Does not help in Sol ranking. And of course you must be able to sail your boat from any computer anywhere.
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-04-02 21:19:35 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	My point was that there are specific rules. Unless those rules are changed, we should continue to obey them in both actuality and in the "spirit of the rules". "One boat" seems quite unambiguous to me. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by Exmeromotu Posts 71 Registered at 2008-12-10 15:22:17	2011-04-03 05:14:32 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Once again I find myself in the middle of controversy... Almost a year ago it was the SLI issue, now its the boatsitting issue. First things first; if NZL_undercover aka UC taking over Exmeromotu's cockpit caused any grief to anyone I sincerely apologize. I play this game not to win, but to hone my tactical and navigational (routing) skills. If my actions have taken away some level of the pleasure of the “SOL Experience” to anybody I am truly sorry. It is not my intention to take anything away from anybody, for that I am deeply sorry. I do hereby request for a RAF score (Retired After Finishing). Did I ask for UC's help at the end of Leg 6? No. We've established a good friendship thanks to SOL, we comment on tactics, strategy and we've done our fairshare of boatsitting for each other when "LIFE" gets in the way of SOLing. Even when one of us is taking a "flyer" we pretty much know what the other is thinking. Have I taken a peek at UC's boat and taken action when I suspect something is going wrong? You bet. In this case he was just returning the favor and I'm glad that he did. Before UC intervened I had skipped two updates, sailing on DC's that (on hindsight) weren't any good. When I finally got home on the wee hours of the night and found that I had split from the fleet I immediately gybed towards the fleet, erased all the remaining DC's and decided to wait 5 minutes for the 0430 UTC update which was just about to come in at any moment. I literally fell asleep at the laptop waiting for the update (Local time is UTC minus 4 hrs.). When I woke up, I found myself pointing towards the line. I looked at the chat and ITA_2011 had noticed that I had gone AWOL (Absent Without Official Leave) and UC had pointed Exmeromotu towards the line. Implying that ITA_2011 was trying to benefit from the situation is just plain baloney. I have the utmost respect for Piero (Winston_4), Andrea (ita10267), Antonio (ghibli) and Neill (NZL_undercover) and I'd be honored to sail IRL with any of them. I doubt very much that Rafa or Viking or the majority of SOLers would like to beat somebody just because the competition fell asleep. I'd rather be "pipped at the post" by somebody who got rescued in a time of need than win by "default"...but that's just me. About the whole situation...Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable?? I'll let you guys decide that issue, but the friends I've made while SOLing and keeping ALL SOLers striving to make this the best online sailing community is what it's really all about. The bottomline of this whole mess is that in order to be FAIR to ALL SOLers a RAF score is what I truly deserve for Leg 6, and I have no problem with that. Cheers, Antonio --- Last Edited by Exmeromotu at 2011-04-03 05:30:33 ---
Posted by AGage Posts 411 Registered at 2008-12-27 10:31:57	2011-04-03 08:07:15 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	This just again emphasizes the rules for boatsitting need a somewhat more explicit definition, because I for one certainly thought the express request & permission of the boat's skipper was required to control their boat. Personally I didn't find it at all fair this happened and I was nowhere near the rankings involved. As ybwlopud points out, when a friend explicitly asks you to boatsit is one thing - jumping in when you see someone drift off course is very much another. I mistakenly didn't set 2 DCs (but was quite sure I had) which cost me the win in Leg5. Like-wise while leading the Suedsee race, I drifted off to sleep and ran straight into an island. And I could continue to list other boats that have made similar errors. Anyway, Exmer's comment about 'winning by default' is just ridiculous. It is part of this game to make sure you manage sleep and set DCs etc OR explicitly ask a friend to boat-sit. Does this mean that dunbur won leg5 'by default'? because the only reason he passed me was I messed up. And that is precisely what won him the race - I made a critical error while dunbur did not - ergo he sailed the race better than I did. Im quite sure we have all finished 1 or more places higher as the result of competitors' error(s), be it navigational or from untimely falling asleep or setting a bad DC (or forgetting to set them). Often the ONLY way to pass a competitor is for them to make an error - and this is the same IRL or Virtual racing. IRL there are things like tuning/sail choice and boathandling to consider, and I have always thought of SOL's equivalent being setting accurate DCs or in general accurate control of your boat for the entire race. This is akin to (IRL) noticing Exmer was downwind without a Spi up, and jumping onto his boat to hoist one for him - it wouldnt be allowed. If I were rafa or Viking, I would be extrememly annoyed and calling for Exmer to be scratched, but he has done the right thing and requested it himself - thats is exactly what would happen here in an IRL race. How is it fair that one boat puts in the effort to ensure their boat is on track, yet is beaten by someone who they otherwise would have beaten if not for unsolicited assistance?? It cannot be considered cheating, as the parties involved did not directly benefit nor did they expect to, and Exmer certainly cant be held personally accountable, but it is most definitely UNFAIR, and should not be considered acceptable byt the SOL community. Again, I think the specific boat-sitting rules need clarification and more explicit stating, perhaps even other measures - like some form of official notification (on the forum even) that a boat-sit is going to occur. Heck, IRL regatta you need to post notification to all competitors if u change a crew, even just change some foils or something - why not here?? And should the rule be updated, it should read something to the effect of "Boat-sitting is allowed, within reason and when explicitly requested by the skipper of the boat being in question".... I am making no personal statements regarding anyone involved here, it wouldnt matter who it was, and those involved do have my utmost respect. But I fail to see any definition of fair that includes this type of thing. @Kalle: Sorry but saying "Max 1 boat per person, but no limit on number of persons per boat" isnt clear at all. When you boatsit, by definition 1 person has more than 1 boat?? I agree it isnt cheating, but unsolicited assistance should not be acceptable IMHO. And Exmer's comment above indicates this is not the first instance of this sort of thing. Sorry I rambled here.... I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by NZL_undercover Posts 65 Registered at 2009-07-31 03:29:32	2011-04-03 09:55:44 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Maybe in the future we will do this behind closed doors if that makes people feel happier..........ignorance is bliss. My helping Exmeromotu was done as an act of friendship to help a fellow Soler that I really enjoy sailing against. I for one am getting very sick of all of the moaning and negativity that is starting to creep into Sol and it is really beginning to destroy the enjoyment of Sol for me. Is it because some of us are doing quite well in races or for some other reasons. Soon we will be moaning that boat..abc. has a better internet connection or a gruntier computer etc etc. Lets just get on with doing the races and not worry so much about what he or she might be or might not be doing.
Posted by NOR_Jawik Posts 70 Registered at 2008-08-31 20:55:18	2011-04-03 10:00:45 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	AGage said @ 2011-04-03 08:07:15: Sorry I rambled here.... I support you in everything you have mentioned and could certainly have added something extra to this, but you got it pretty good out in daylight. Under the Adriatic race, I discovered that Capella was on land and now also Careka. I could have intervened and rescued the two, but let this be since this would not be fair to the others. The opportunity is there, but we do not practice this today. Had we decided to only one boat, this would have been otherwise. As you mention, to jump on board to your neighbor's boat to hoist the sail is not normal during the voyage. I have the perception that I am sailing well, but I need sleep and then it becomes a little gambling until I wake up. Just the way I wanted to experience this during a singelhanded on the boat. Alone. Then I discover that there is a crew of 4-6 people on board the neighbor. I have no chance to compete at these premises. I'm still alone in my boat.
Posted by Gilles Posts 127 Registered at 2009-07-18 11:05:22	2011-04-03 10:29:40 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	really strange the whole discussion.... I made the same call "Exme! you are going back!, in the chat 2 days before (as he was really going in the OPPOSITE direction) and there where no complains/comment at all... May be because was just at the beginning of the leg?? Next time I will apply what UC suggest and forget the rule of friendship across the world generated by SOLing that had motivated my shout... --- Last Edited by Gilles at 2011-04-03 10:37:21 ---
Posted by ybwlopud Posts 6 Registered at 2008-10-08 18:12:45	2011-04-03 10:43:57 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Personally I do not think Exmer should be RAF. In this instance Exmer did not do anything wrong. The rules should be made clearer and in the future if this sort of thing goes on behind closed doors then it will be those people who are spoiling SOL. I am not moaning and complaining by starting this thread, but just trying to clarify the rules so that SOL is fair to everyone. Falling asleep, mis setting DC's etc is the equivalent to IRL of breaking something on the boat by pushing to hard, its good to see the top boats make mistakes as it shows that they are like the rest of us...HUMAN
Posted by ybwlopud Posts 6 Registered at 2008-10-08 18:12:45	2011-04-03 10:48:37 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Gilles said @ 2011-04-03 10:29:40: really strange the whole discussion.... I made the same call "Exme! you are going back!, in the chat 2 days before (as he was really going in the OPPOSITE direction) and there where no complains/comment at all... May be because was just at the beginning of the leg?? Next time I will apply what UC suggest and forget the rule of friendship across the world generated by SOLing that had motivated my shout... --- Last Edited by Gilles at 2011-04-03 10:37:21 --- No problems making a shout, thats good, but surely if you are looking at the chat window you can see your boat in trouble??
Posted by NOR_Jawik Posts 70 Registered at 2008-08-31 20:55:18	2011-04-03 12:25:43 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Quote: "The Barcelona World Race is the only first double-handed (two-crew) race around the world. This is a non-stop race with something outside assistance permitted, although subject two rules and penalties, an approach." SOL'S IMOC Global Challenge 2011 would be like a copy of The Barcelona World Race, I thought, - double-handed (two-crew) - and then it becomes something strange when an equally well find that some boats exceed that number of crew. The same experience when I sail single-handed and assistance from several crew turns out to assist other boats. This makes no sense to me when I try to add up to reality as closely as possible. If SOL says single-handed, double-handed or more crew on board, I take note of this and sail accordingly. The possibility of a good placement on the list are present at a double-handed boat when I myself am single-handed. But the same race against a boat with full crew, I can forget, but take note of this before I start. Better to gain 200 points over 600 on the list.

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