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Board » General Discussion » Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??

Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-04-04 16:41:10 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Would anyone object if I set up a Consortium of 20 people located strategically around the world, collectively running some 60 boats, using all the routing programs available, and with advance knowledge of the weather, because some will be working at NOAA? Would anyone object if we set up an elite group of those sailors who were 'entitled' to win races by missing the turn Marks? If the answer is "NO", then I will need to find another hobby. I will await with considerable interest the collective SOL reply. P.S. It is a well recognized technique in philosophical argument to postulate an extreme position---it is called "Argumentum ad absurdum". It does wonders in clarifying muddy arguments. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2011-04-04 17:18:25 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	@Rod Is your dream team forbidden by the rules? You can't. Is it allowed by the rules? Please do. I (and many others) will have an extreme fun to compete against such a team without whining. And even more fun to beat them consistently.
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-04-04 17:50:56 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	I do not WANT to set up any such 60 boat consortium---but IF I did, would you ever know it???? If it is 'forbidden' for 60, why should it be 'legal' for 2 ??? The "Rules of the Game"are for everyone. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2011-04-04 18:23:18 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	@Rod. A Consortium of 60 is not forbidden, nor it is a Consortium of 1000 skipper. What it is clearly forbidden by the rules is, for a single skipper so have more than one boat used for its own advantage. Again, as Kalle has stated, boatsitting is allowed so our discussion here it is meaningless until the rules are changed. Till that moment I will not add any comment to the topic. Over and out.
Posted by Tempest Posts 79 Registered at 2009-06-16 17:44:17	2011-04-04 18:29:45 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	As the rules state "boatsitting "is allowed however From the FAQ Q: Can me and a friend "share" a boat although we do not share the same computer, or even live in the same country? A: Yes, no problem. Just share your login details and you are all set to share the boat. Only question is - do you trust your friend? Q: Why is it not allowed to have more than one boat? A: We like to give all players a fair chance, multiple boats is considered cheating and therefore not allowed. My question is when becomes "boatsitting" sailing 2 vessels with 2 persons,or 3 vessels with 3 persons which according to the above is at least doubtful behaviour. To my opinion the rules are not very clear in that respect and may need some further clarification. If people are teaming up like that have at least the sportmanship to register one boat as a team and leave the other boats ashore. I am still not a big fan of team boats but can live with it when openly admitted. Hope you don't mind if I stick to single handed sailing. Rescueing other vessels is something else but to compare it to IRL i think is taking it one step to far . Haven't heard any mayday's on the radio lately. To my opinion it can be seen as boatsitting in extremis but I am no fan of it. But if accepted by this community i go with the majority. Tempest
Posted by NZL_undercover Posts 65 Registered at 2009-07-31 03:29:32	2011-04-04 20:39:37 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	My thoughts Boat sitting is allowed within the rules. I do agree that myself jumping into Exmeromotu's boat the other day with out him asking me too was bending the boat sitting rule........ It was done with no thought to ranking or with no thought to the effect on other sailors. It was done openly as there was nothing to hide. Exmeromotu and Undercover do not run any sort of team boat and openly compete against each other. We do on occasion boat sit for each other as already stated. I also have 2 other sailors that can boat sit for me. I think probably 2-3 times in the last 18 months we have jumped into each others boats in times of need. If the community decide that jumping in is beyond the boat sitting rule then this activity will stop immediately. I don't think either of us have anything to hide and are both honest competitors that really enjoy the SOLing world. Cheers Undercover PS......don't read anything into my boat name
Posted by WIN Posts 337 Registered at 2009-07-09 23:32:07	2011-04-04 22:05:08 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Rod.... As you have laid on the table "argomentum ad absurdum " ..and I am fluent in Latin , I feel the duty to contribute my opinion to your queries , and I in bona fide believe that many Solers interprete the rules same way as I do : 1) the rule is "one skipper one boat" ..NOT one boat one skipper " ( quite different ) 2) Syndicates ( consortiums ) have been declared legal by Sailport ( one boat multiple skippers ) 3) boatsitting requires clarification ( agree with AGage ). To me it has always meant : "I will not be able to be at helm from such hour till such hour..please can you keep an eye on my boat to avoid any rocks..?? " When I know that I cannot be at helm at least 90/95% of a race time , then I do not start my boat . 4) Sailport has not declared illegal any software so far. Besides Sailport proposes Sailplanner. Using software or not is personal choice, but I would be extremely favourable to single races for non routers .The fact that some may cheat is rubbish . We are all sportmen and gentlemen ( gentle ladies as well ), and if there is one who is not would be immediatly visible by many means. 5) The shouting for anyone going astray or beaching is controversial . Honestly it is part of my sport experience and culture to beat my competition on the water , and not because their boat has wrecked on the rocks , but still understand those who feel robbed because someone had saved their direct competitor . Honestly I do not think that a personal behaviour of genlemanship with good and bad effects can be subject of any ruling. 6) Since many many moons now the correct rounding of marks has been enforced and the server DOES reject irregular roundings , so NO , you cannot have a team allowed to bypass that rule ...., BUT ...YES ..you can have on board people working for NOAA . In SOL there is no discriminatory rule in that respect . My advice though is that they would know about the weather exactly same time as you do through the gribs . And finally ....Rod ... SURSUM CORDA !!!! (good courage and stay happy !! ) ciao all WIN
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-04-04 23:06:57 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	The exact wording of the "One skipper, one boat" and "One boat, one skipper" instruction escapes me at the moment, but somehow I do not find that the two sentences have different meanings. Perhaps this problem need definite clarification. The Mark turning problem does not apply to the Main races--it occurs only in the informal "practice races" where the computer is not involved. Because of the way in which the computer updates the course lines only at several-minute-intervals, a competitor cannot see whether a Mark has been turned correctly, or not, until several minutes later. There are techniques available whereby a competitor can later view his own (and any other boat's) course at high magnification, and remove all doubt about a correct rounding. If a competitor feels any doubt about whether a Mark was turned correctly, it is easy to check. No penalty has been incurred UNTIL the finish line has been crossed, when the boat either has finished correctly, or is 'Disqualified' for failure to complete the course. In no way has this interfered with either the 'enjoyment' or the 'practice' of these 'practice races'. It only determines whether the competitor can validly claim a "WIN" or a "Position" in the finishing order. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by 76Trombones Posts 362 Registered at 2009-08-03 18:04:56	2011-04-05 02:44:08 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2011-04-05 02:54:54 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Perhaps when entering a race, one should declare wether they are using "routing software" or not. Just like IRL entering a spinnaker or non-spinnaker division of a race. The results leaderboard could show this. Will people cheat or wrongly declare? Possibly but then again most of us all sail IRL and for me I would not. Just like using your motor if it is calm!! Previously I have stated, SOL is a great place to learn "HOW" to use routing software. I have used the Sail Planner, but currently do not use any routing software; relying entitrely on SOTP v5.9. (Seat of the Pants) If it breaks, it's not strong enough!

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