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Board » Technical Support » Discrepancies needing repair

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Posted by
76Trombones


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2011-07-18 20:20:07 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
mustang_sally said @ 2011-07-18 19:42:28:
Trying to be heard, with the exclamation marks!!!

Sorry if the original post was directed at me. I was quoting Rod. I still don't think any rule was broken by the boats taking the W route.

Posted by
76Trombones


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2011-07-18 20:37:02 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
Rod said @ 2011-07-18 20:09:33:
I do not know how to write a program that "automatically enforces" the 'rule' about 'One boat-one sailor' and would prohibit groups from running many boats, as well as boat-sitting.

Neither do I. I can program just fine, but I don't know how to write a plain text rule that does what people want.

But I do know that a clear statement about the matter, which does not mean what is actually DONE, is not helpful.

Right, we agree. This is the third (fourth?) invitation I've issued in as many days. Suggest an alternate wording. Please format it so that SOL can cut and paste once it's been approved/debated by members here in the forum.

If preference in timing of commands actually does occur

It does not.

If it does not, then remove the statement

Are you even reading the responses here?

When?

When they have time. People have jobs and family. Until then the *volunteers* setting up races have it in hand.

But "Keep quiet, don't mention these things, just go about your business and race!"--this does not help.

The exact opposite is being asked. Complaints aren't the same as contributions. You've pointed out some excellent things to work on - who do you expect to do it, and why?

I'm not on salary, I'm not on staff, I'm not a God/Goddess but I'd like to think that I've contributed to SOL. There's no clique beyond a small group who are trying to keep it so that we can all race. Everyone are invited.
Posted by
Rod


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2011-07-18 20:57:01 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
I did suggest--remove the statement. If such a rule cannot be written, don't say "One sailor, one boat".
If no preference exists, then state how the server prioritizes the execution of commands. It must do so---it can't execute them all at once. What priorities apply? --(If you examine the cluster of boats soon after a start, you will observe that there is little correspondence between the position of each boat's image on the screen, and its announced race order number. This indicates a spread of time over which commands are executed.) This may sound trivial, but if one boat has a half-mile lead at the beginning, it is very difficult to catch up.
This is not a complaint--it is a problem. I do not think that any remedy employed would greatly change my finishing order..I make my own mistakes in routing, because I calculate all of my own.
p.s. I have examined the SYC invitation on the home page, and yes, it has been removed. BUT--it was there until recently--some one wrote it--did it describe something in the programming?---has that programming been removed along with the statement?
All of this may sound like 'nit-picking' or 'sea-lawyering'---but this racing site is both maturing and becoming more competitive. Just as with the IRL Racing Rules of Sailing, SOL must become more specific with time. The RRS has almost continuous re-examination of the RRS for precisely this reason---and most of the Protest Committee work is also done by amateurs who work at day jobs.....


--- Last Edited by Rod at 2011-07-18 21:13:11 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
76Trombones


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2011-07-18 21:36:44 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
Rod said @ 2011-07-18 20:57:01:
I did suggest--remove the statement. If such a rule cannot be written, don't say "One sailor, one boat".

Ok great! I don't approve of the change because it doesn't address the problem that most boats feel exists. I don't think that explicitly allowing more than one boat per skipper will have strong community support, but what do I know? I'm just one boat. There has been somewhat of an observed truce on this matter. How about a rule that reflects what we want to see, rather than one that doesn't.

It seriously does not matter how the *math* works. The server uses a variable timestep that varies with load etc. What you see on screen is where the boat was last time there was a valid pos and before your client polled the server. All of the boats are ahead of where they show on your screen. How far they go is a function of speed and time. SOL times races based on fractions of timesteps at the finish. Whether your individual jumps line up perfectly at roundings is luck of the draw. Same with SLI hopping. The only reason I know any of this is by watching what happens and reading the forum. I don't need to know if the order is random, or pseudo-random, or alphabetical or based on when we sign up for a race because is doesn't matter.

then state how the server prioritizes the execution of commands.

WHY? Boats are fast because they are sailing well, not because they have inside info or are cheating somehow.

Questions like "why do the boats show up in little arcs at the start" get replied to all the time. People are sometimes curious. If you think the answer needs to be in the manual, go for it, but don't be surprised if other boats don't get too excited about it.

The forum is perfectly searchable btw. "site:sailonline.org + your question" in Google.
Posted by
A2


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2011-07-18 21:39:00 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
For me, as an aging baby boomer on a fixed income, I appreciate the philosophy of the Company & its Principal members who make this experience available Gratis encompassing a wide range of abilities & experiences all under one Big Tent.

All they ask in return is only 1 entry per participant.

This is a Server accommodation.

This is not a proscription of the number of skippers any 1 boat can have.

For the record I maintain single-handed status at all times but have not publicized this fact until now.

The Total number of boats is not to exceed the number of persons plying their skills in any race.

This is the intent of the "One Sailor, One Boat" statement

--- Last Edited by 8mR Who at 2011-07-18 21:47:39 ---
None so blind
Posted by
Rod


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2011-07-18 22:23:10 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
I have not, EVER, made any complaint about the operation of SOL.
I have asked questions, seeking clarification about several points that have puzzled me.
I have suggested some changes to clarify the wording of certain things in the SOL Manual and in SOL practice.
I have suggested some ways in which the SOL experience might be improved visually, in line with the increasing 'reality' seen in other computer game programs. It is a fact of life that 'older' game formats become dis-used and discarded--I truly hope that this fate does not occur to SOL, because I wish to continue to exercise my brain by studying the strategy of ocean-going navigation.
If SOL wishes me to stop, I will do so--I will just shut up, sail my boat, and ignore everything else---I truly do not need the aggravation...
If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by
sol


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2011-07-18 23:03:01 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
.

--- Last Edited by sol at 2011-07-18 23:03:35 ---
Posted by
76Trombones


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2011-07-18 23:08:00 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
Doh. I suggest that we disable forum posting by sol, if at all possible (and accept that that our clumsy forum software probably doesn't support doing so).

--------

Rod, your suggestions have been openly discussed. The visual improvements idea generated quite a lot of talk. Is the problem that it wasn't implemented, or not instantly?

I obviously don't understand. Who are you making suggestions to? Why is up to someone else to act on them?

You suggestion about clarifying the wording in the membership benefits section was acted on within 12h, which happened to be overnight in Europe, where SOL is based. What is there now is very clear, as suggested.

SOL should not have to entertain accusations that the info provided is deliberately misleading, or that there is some sort of secret society that has a hidden advantage.

I don't know exactly what is written in the code, and it doesn't matter - I can observe how it works, and I've *never* seen anything that suggests other than what we've been told.
Posted by
AGage


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2011-07-19 12:28:27 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
Rod said @ 2011-07-18 22:23:10:
I have not, EVER, made any complaint about the operation of SOL.
I have asked questions, seeking clarification about several points that have puzzled me.
Then, regrettably I must say: you need to word your 'questions' more carefully, because to be honest, they more often seem like complaints...
Rod said @ 2011-07-18 22:23:10:
I have suggested some ways in which the SOL experience might be improved visually, in line with the increasing 'reality' seen in other computer game programs. It is a fact of life that 'older' game formats become dis-used and discarded--
Actually, this completely wrong!
I truly hope that this fate does not occur to SOL
It won't as a) SOL is not a commercial product (how much have you paid so far?) and b) It is not in any competition with such 'games' - SOL is, btw, a simulator....
because I wish to continue to exercise my brain by studying the strategy of ocean-going navigation.

Please explain how making SOL 3 dimensional will help you exercise your brain in ocean navigation ??
Take a look at TOP (ie $1000s) software specifically written for ocean nav - NONE of it is 3D... 3D (in gaming) is basically eye candy to keep the masses happy and think they are getting something more or better than they actually are... (Question: How many truly innovative 3D games have there been in the past decade - answer: None)

I tried to find a link that I recently read, pointing out that, of ALL gaming consoles, sure the XBox360 and PS3 with all the wiz bang graphics sold a bunch, but worldwide do you know what sold more units??
The Nintendo DS!! Yes thats right, a simple little 2D gaming device that fits in your pocket/handbag. Not to mention their (very 'underpowered') Wii, which while still behind the XBox360 by about 15% in lifetime sales, has outsold both the XBox360 & PS3 combined, for the last 6 months! And software sales are similar.

As for the most poular games people buy over the net - simple $2 2D games, (from iTunes etc & mostly played on mobile devices) still outsell $25+ million productions like Crysis!

In fact, do you know what THE most profitable game of 2010 was??
FARMVILLE - A Facebook based game!

Incase you are not familiar with it, here is a sample screenshot (note the 'outdated 1980's style graphics' of this, the most profitable game of 2010)



BTW, what exactly have you suggested and been told 'it cannot be done' ??
Rod said @ 2011-07-18 19:26:43:
Unfortunately, no "solutions" can be presented by those who do not have programming access.
NOT true
I can suggest all the solutions I like, but if I get told that things "can't" be changed---what can I then do?
..........................
Give this some serious thought, not platitudes about "this has been discussed before"----
Who exactly is this directed at?
And - what makes you think serious thought is not already being put into pretty much every aspect of SOL?


I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
captjack1942


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2011-07-22 17:36:01 - Re: Discrepancies needing repair
1) The chart format and the weather grid we have are pretty basic to real navigation. Most charts and virtually all nav software programs are visually similar. The colored wind barbs are very much like the wind barbs in the Ugrib reader.
Why should we change to look like the VORG?

If we are going to add anything, I really think it should be an over lay of basic current patterns. Server should be able to handle that a lot easier than trying to run a full sim. Maybe in the future we can also look at tides, and squall lines. ;-)

2) I don't think there is any way to actually enforce any rule against boat sitting. The only possible way to do that would be to limit one's login to only one IP address. IP addresses are not fixed and would have to be renewed. Plus any one (like me) who uses 2~3 hotspots a day would be locked out most of the time.
I really don't mind racing against 2011 or any other group. If I put together a good effort in a race, I believe I can beat them.
Also there are many of us who have a small group of friends that can, and do, sometimes bail us out if we run aground when we can't be online.

I do believe the Admiral (Kalle) has spoken on this, so it is as it is.

--- Last Edited by Jack Watson at 2011-07-22 17:37:51 ---

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