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Board » General Discussion » Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??

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Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2011-07-11 14:57:46 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Ah...the boatsitting issue again! So I can comment.....again! The one reason I am not taking part in the recent SOL races, (leaving all the fun to Sir WINSTON the GREAT ) with ita10267 is because I cannot steer the boat by myself all the time as I wanted. The last Gotland race was the demonstration. I left the race (TWA=0) with a fair lead (given the opponent) as I would have needed help from a friend in rounding the next mark. On the other hand I take great pleasure in sailing the ITA_2011 teamboat because it gives me the opportunity of chatting with friends regarding options and strategy, something I used to do with my strongest most terrible opponents (brainaid, Wiz, SWE54, Mac et al.) in the chat room which is now becoming a place for chitchatting about everything but sailing or whining about unfairness of the competition. I will always remember the times when, at 2am, I was discussing with Eddie the new weather patterns and after 5 mins trying to attack him (fool me) staying awake the next hours. Now most of the newbies fear that "they will never win a race". This is totally untrue, everyone has been a newcomer and can win races or, even better, sit at #1 of the SYC Ranking. Clearly the technical situation has evolved and we all agree that without a reliable weather routing software winning is very difficult (brainaid was the first and we ALL cheered him as a weather routing guru). But getting one is simple and free of charge. Learning how it works is more difficult and using it for winning races is even more difficult. But possible.
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-07-11 17:53:49 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	I do not feel I am "whining" about the unfairness----I am stating that the rule is ambiguous and confusing. I 'race' here to challenge my own mind--not that of 'brainaid'---I do my own predictions--and fail my own 'failures'. I,too, feel that I 'cannot' win, unless I let brainaid have all the 'fun'---but I race more against myself than anybody else. I would like the rules to be exact and specific---after-all, the end result is exact and specific. I do notice that 'brain-aid' is no longer racing here with us. Is it because he has become bored with the certainty of winning? --- Last Edited by Rod at 2011-07-11 17:56:22 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by impala_ood Posts 8 Registered at 2011-07-08 15:47:37	2011-07-11 21:48:09 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Hi new to the site, in my first race and having a whale of a time. Had no idea such a thing as sail online existed and only wish I had discovered it ages ago. Still so much to learn! Now this whole cheating, unfair, acceptable thread has probably rightly run out of steam and I'm loath to stoke it all up again but looking at it through the eyes of a (SOL) innocent I thought it might be worth throwing in my quick observation, because to my mind it doesn't really seem complicated at all.... one boat per person, or gang up with some friends and share a boat, but whether as an individual or a team you can only have one entry in a race. If you've given your password to someone, then you have given them permission to control your boat - end of. So in the initial situation they by default had a boat sharing agreement. My first race I was concentrating on doing better than the boats closest to me. Just by watching their names on the screen, by constantly checking their track, knowing we were in the same wind, I did develop an infinity with them even though I had not even chatted with them. A bit like real life, Open Ocean, humanity joined together albeit on separate craft, in an adverse environment. So I surprised myself how concerned I felt when I noticed one of the boats near me against whom I was in a direct race, fail to change course and beach. If I could have woken him up and alerted him to the danger I would have done, not just sailed past. If I had access to his password would I have changed his course without a baby sitting agreement specific to this race? No. But if someone else in the same situation felt it was appropriate to do that then it's not for me to criticise them. I like the idea of doing it on my own. I think it's great that people develop teams and I'd be honoured if one day I was good enough to be invited to join one, but that does seem to be a very different concept from taking it upon yourself to alter someones course without their permission, when potentially someone else in the same position elsewhere on the course, playing in good faith but without the contacts, is left to go on the rocks. The overall conclusion I'm left with is shit happens! These sort of things have to be left to the individuals conscience. We all do things spur of the moment to help out friends, we might not do it again with hind sight, and if some of us do it all the time well then that wouldn't seem to be in the spirit of the game, but above all don't get sucked into the reactionary rule making route! If SOL has worked for this long as it is, and is clearly this well loved by the people that take part, don't go down the route of making rule after rule after rule because it will get complicated and all the fun will definitely then be driven out of the game. Blimey - I thought this was only going to be a quick post!! Happy sailing all.. can't wait to keep learning from all of you Rich (Impala)
Posted by ShamrockPirate Posts 189 Registered at 2010-12-03 17:49:57	2011-07-12 00:06:56 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	LOVE IT! I have been loath to join in this on-going fray but the succinct observation of our latest SOLoist, Impala, just made it impossible to resist. One boat; 12 boats; singlehanding; 42-crew (like a racing J-Class) or auto-pilot with 72+ hours on DC.... it doesn't matter. "Shit happens" I could not agree more that it is utterly painful to see a close competitor go BBQ for untold reasons. Maybe fell asleep, lost internet connection, house was on fire, whatever. It's the nature of the online environment. But I have yet to understand why boats choose to go TWA=0 just because they could not make a "perfect rounding". Better to retire than risk a few DC's? I don't deny them the choice... I just don't understand it. As for the realism often discussed, SOL does the best possible job of this in this medium but really... does the same boat ALWAYS win IRL? No. Something breaks, they hourglass the spin on a gybe, they don't get the lift they expected. All manner of natural and man-made calamities befall even the best after the starting gun fires. I would, once again, raise the possibility of Class Divisions. With all the elegant and amazing upgrades of late (multitudes of thanks to the Chief Engineer and all in the engineroom), this would not seem a difficult tweak. Much like choosing from multiple boats, the same would be true here. Each boat would declare the division they plan to race in for each competition. My previous suggestion was 3 divisions: Pro, Performance and Recreational. I would welcome a new thread with suggestions on what would constitute each but the point would be the ability to compete against like-minded SOLers. This would NOT mean that a strict single-hander with a super-secret password and no idea of routing software and gribs would be excluded from the Pro category, you would just know what the playing field was like and who was on it. And if you hit podium... all the sweeter!!! I would hope that segmenting of the fleet would not go against the all-inclusive philosophy of SOL but perhaps it would open up more interaction (maybe add some new chatrooms) as SOLers watched their proficiency grow and progress through the ranks. Just my $0.02 USD (or 0.0142477 EUR if you prefer) SP
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-07-12 14:30:34 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	The only trouble with your theory, ShamrockPirate, is that, "if it doesn't matter", then why bother at all with separate classes of SOLers? The very fact that you have gone to the trouble of considering the problem, means that "it does matter"! To you, to me, and probably to most SOLers. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by AGage Posts 411 Registered at 2008-12-27 10:31:57	2011-07-13 16:04:44 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	I think you misunderstand what SP is saying 'doesn't matter' Rod?? <snip> --- Last Edited by Aaron Gage at 2011-07-13 16:06:24 --- I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2011-07-13 17:48:00 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	Most SOLers are probably much like me--trying to do our best while playing alone. We accept that many use external routing aids, and it could be our choice to use them too, if we wanted. But many SOLers also use the assistance of external partners, so that their boats remain controlled while the 'sailor' sleeps, or attends to the ordinary tasks of daily life. However the rules clearly state "one sailor-one boat". The only justification for so-called boat-sitting is in the FAQs, NOT the RULES. If the rules need to be changed to allow multiple helmsmen, then change them. But then, do you think that a single sailor, or a small group, should be allowed to have as large a group of boats as they care to manage? Bear in mind that this might mean that the upper part of the SYC list might be just a large group of boats controlled by only one controlling entity. I do not think that the present members of the SYC list (I am not one of them) would then be equally pleased with such a rule change. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by BigRayRay Posts 7 Registered at 2010-08-14 02:55:40	2011-07-14 05:59:34 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	I sail solo. I sleep 8 hours and work about 10. When I first started soling I thought boats were playing follow the leader taking advantage of the good sailor's skills, but now I understand it's 5 or 10 guys sailing each others boats. Rest assured if I ever win a race. I will have won the race on my own.
Posted by NZL_undercover Posts 65 Registered at 2009-07-31 03:29:32	2011-07-14 10:33:54 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	What a load of crap!! Boats controlled by groups of people!!! I think you both are in fantasy land. Its people like you guy's that ruin this type of online experience for me. I am wondering if I can be bothered renewing my SYC membership.
Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2011-07-14 10:38:06 - Re: Is it cheating, unfair or acceptable??
	finally!

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