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Board » General Discussion » Wrong Speed VMG

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Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-02-12 14:14:36 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Aaron: Yachts on long ocean races can take some time to tack and get back up to speed. There is often a lot more to do than simply tacking as in harbour racing or small dinghy sailing.

Often boom(s)have preventers rigged to stop accidental gybes;

Running backstays to organise, setup and then later to tie down the leeward running backstays so they don't bang or scratch the mast, cabin top or sides and keep off watch members awake when they are trying to be asleep.

Extra staysails to dowse and rehoist

Inner forestays to setup or remove sometimes.

Cockpit(s) to tidy up, binoculars, cameras, books, iPods to go below, torches to be placed near winches for sail trimming after tacking, sunglasses, suncreams to put lids on and stow safely, biscuits and sweets to tidy up and put away so they will stay dry; Towels and other washing to remove from windward life lines.

Winch handles to find, leeward sheets to run before releasing and tacking and windward sheets to be checked that they are all set to go and not fouled by spinnaker poles, topping lifts, halyards etc and loaded onto winches;

Sails stacked on windward decks or on windward side down below;

Sewing machine to lash down (seen one fly across the saloon 3 times because others had not lashed it down)

Crew to move bunks after been woken up in the middle of their deep sleep and they also need a hot cup of coffee / tea to be made with biscuits etc;

Galley pots and pans, plates cups to wash & stow away; food lockers to shut etc.

Bilges to pump dry so the other side does not get totally wet immediately;

These days water ballast tanks to fill and drain;

Keels to "cant" (swing) to vertical and then to windward after tacking.

All the above needs to be done with half a harbour racing crew as those off watch don't want to get out of their bunks, dress for wet weather gear and harnesses just for a simple tack. Besides it is often cold, wet and dark on deck.

LOL but there really is a lot to do. You could of been on the same tack for several days. I know I must of left several items off my list, but that's a start.

--- Last Edited by Paul Rosser at 2009-02-12 14:16:34 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-02-27 08:31:48 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Well, Ive seen boats in both Sydney to Hobart, and shorter Volvo class races have tacking duels, but....

I really wanted to ask about the max performance loss, as Jakob originally posted that it shouldnt go below about 93%. Today I mistakenly didnt set a delayed gybe to be a DC, so it did it immediately, hence I gybed back, and the performance dropped to just over 86%. Would this imply that what you meant Jakob, is that max performance loss per manouvuer is about 7%, so hypothetically if I did 8 or so manouvuers that resulted in max performance loss in succession, I would have around 50% performance?
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2009-02-27 08:40:49 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
That's what practice sailing is all about!

Try it.

Then learn to do controlled gybes!!

Then slow up before gybing !!

No more crash gybes!!
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
AGage


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2009-03-07 01:18:46 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
NZL_PaulR said @ 2009-02-27 08:40:49:
Then learn to do controlled gybes!!

Then slow up before gybing !!
=======================
Hmmm and here I thought the cardinal rule for a smooth gybe was to go into it as fast as possible? Yes you want to minimize the angle between them, and yes I have practiced both tacking and gybing using different techniques to hopefully minimize the performance loss, but they basically all work out the same... going from twa140 to -140 is basically the same as doung it in 4 or more smaller manouvuers...

I am still of the opinion, that 7+nm to regain 100% performance after a tack is a bit excessive... I said before that my experiene on large yachts is limited, but Paul, if all those things you mention in your above post happen every time you tack, Id say "thats ridiculous"... And if some of them do... well how does securing winch handles effect performance? And on a well crewed boat, they shouldnt need to be searched for prior to a manouvuer...
Once you have your sails trimmed for the new tack, which should not take 7nm to do, then it doesnt take long for the boat to sail up to speed again??

--- Last Edited by RainbowChaser at 2013-07-26 09:20:20 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-03-07 07:48:33 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
The key words are "long ocean races".

If you have been on the one board for a week or even two weeks, not everything is put away correctly as in a day sail in rough water / strong breeze.

People are messy, and leave stuff lying around. You only need one "messy" on a yacht and soon the whole place is untidy.

If it is just you and your family, you can be definitive in your requests as a parent and use those well practiced home sayings:
to "put things away" and
"tidy your (room) = bunk space. (Dad's grumpy again, it wasn't me etc will be the chorus you hear.)

The old nautical saying is:
"Every thing in its place and a place for everything".

Introduce strangers (non-immediate family) and you loose all authority and mess just happens. Imagine your nephews and nieces all sharing the lounge with you, all day; sleeping eating & living.

Not everybody will put clothes away in their seabag or on their bunk.

So yes on a long cruise, annoying little banging noises from winch handles banging on cockpit sides whilst in pockets, running backstay blocks etc all get silenced, taped up, tied off, to stop annoying continual banging etc.

So by the time you do this for 10+ days, lots of items get "left" there in case a person need them later or for when they need it again on their next watch, yes that soon.

So yes your inexperience shows for "Long ocean races".

Some boats are not that bad, others worse. Just like those kitchen cupboards for pots & pans, the plastic container cupboard etc. Imagine tacking your kitchen frol leaning 20 ~ 25 degrees to the left, then 20 ~ 25 degrees to the right.

Like ours, there would be a big mess as not everything is perfectly stacked!
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


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2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-03-07 08:02:15 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
AGage said @ 2009-03-07 01:18:46:
. . . well how does securing winch handles effect performance? And on a well crewed boat, they shouldnt need to be searched for prior to a manouvuer...
There may only be one or two winch handles on deck, so you have to get the other 4 handles up on deck and take at least one to the mast. You may well have a headsail, staysail, mizzen staysail that will all require a winch each + boom preventers, travellers, running backstays. so 6 winch handles disappear to a winch quickly.

Racing: a well found crew. Yes but only half may be awake and the other s off watch don't want to be disturbed. so you have only half a crew.

Some will not be sleeping where you think they should. They have made a "compfy hide away cave" in amoungst the sails.

Others are head first down a quarter berth so that their head is in the darker space and could therefore get to sleep more easily and at first glance, you would miss them.

Others will suggest serious disagreement with your heritage and upbringing and will positive suggest you look further afield for help. LOL
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
Hew


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2008-12-15 00:35:22
2009-03-07 14:51:55 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Any gybe involves many little things, but getting the boat turned and the sails trimmed on the new side, take precedence over all others. Once the sails are trimmed, the boat accelerates up to 99.9% speed in a short time. The last .1% is made up when the tidying up process is complete.

Any preparation time spent "getting ready", is done while the boat is at full speed, before the turn is started.
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-03-08 10:31:16 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
My thoughts exactly... I just thought it obvious so didnt bother to actually write it in a post... The manouvuer itself shouldnt take that long... prep maybe, but that, as Hew remarks, is all pre manouvuer...
I still contend boat takes far to long to regain 100% perf, as stated, 7nm+ is a long damn way.
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
AGage


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2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-03-08 10:41:17 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
NZL_PaulR said @ 2009-03-07 08:02:15:
Racing: a well found crew. Yes but only half may be awake and the other s off watch don't want to be disturbed. so you have only half a crew.

Some will not be sleeping where you think they should. They have made a "compfy hide away cave" in amoungst the sails.

Others are head first down a quarter berth so that their head is in the darker space and could therefore get to sleep more easily and at first glance, you would miss them.

Others will suggest serious disagreement with your heritage and upbringing and will positive suggest you look further afield for help. LOL
=======================
Well i) if half crew is asleep then you should still have enough concious crew to man the boat properly...
ii) If they want to win races, and especially if they have signed up for a 12000nm race they should be better behaved and not complain... And i am sure i have seen crew sleeping in hammocks that simple swing with boat heel...
But this is getting way off topic now, so 'I RETIRE'...
see u back at the bar ;-)

--- Last Edited by RainbowChaser at 2013-07-26 09:19:50 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__

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