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Board » General Discussion » Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races

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Posted by
javakeda


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2013-03-01 03:18:22
2014-05-11 05:21:26 - Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
Under the present SOL rules, land jumping is legal. To me, it makes no sense that a podium position in a race that has been underway for weeks could be determined by what is, essentially, a roll of the dice.

I propose that, henceforth, land jumping be declared illegal for the 2014 Ocean Racing Series.

The easiest way to do that is to amend the NOR for the series to so state.

In the past, the objection to such a rule is that it can not be enforced with current server code.
OK, that's what we can't do.
Here is what we can do:

1) Position marks to reduce the incentive for land jumping. In general, that means having marks slightly off-shore of temptingly narrow 'spits'.

[A related issue is why any mark should be on dry land, but that is a subject for another thread.]

2) Encourage self-reporting of inadvertent 'jumps' by imposing a minimum penalty for self-reported infractions.

3) Allow skippers to protest 'jumps' that are not self-reported AND that affect the outcome of the race. Penalties for such jumps should be significantly more severe than for those that are self-reported.

That is all we would need to do.

We should do it!

--- Last Edited by javakeda at 2014-05-11 05:23:06 ---

--- Last Edited by javakeda at 2014-05-11 05:23:38 ---
Posted by
outlaw


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2014-05-11 07:19:00 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
I disagree! In real life jumps are policed by cold hard rocks!! As long as the server allows it doing these jumps is just human nature!!!

(Besides 'track intersects coast' should be easy to code. 'position is on land' gives me a headache just thinking about it.)

1) I 100% agree. Going close to a mark is very common, so special attention is needed. (for the record I would have ended the race in Muskat)

2) Been there, done that. Whole different can of worms.

3) "Wow I jumped?! I was away all day on a business trip and didn't notice."
Posted by
kroppyer


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2014-05-11 08:29:00 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
I agree with outlaw. As long as jumping is allowed by the server, it shouldn't be banned. It is something that can happen by accident, so you can't classify is as taking advantage of a bug.
Posted by
sol


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2014-05-11 08:51:11 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
Hallo my friends ;)

last night I was watching the race from the "sol" boat , and read the entire " not new " discussion . I tried to intervene , but could not as sol , and when I tried to register WIN just to speak , the race was closed already .!! ;) LOL

I just want you to relax !

Work on potential revision of rules ( not only sli jumping ) and ways of enforcing them had been started by SRC recently , and is underway .

Meanwhile I'd like to answer a few comments made by you already :

I agree with Java . I also agree with Outlaw that the penalty mechanism needs to be simple and straighforward .

What Kroppyer suggests is status quo , based on same grounds on which decision to allow sli jumping was based by fathers founders few years ago : impossibility to enforce by server . Well ....I disagree for a number of reasons :

1) we ( SOL ) are in an evolving step and the time is right to be courageous. The platform belongs to its community ....and the community is made 99,99% of gentlemen and yachtsmen . Let's start trusting that a non enforced rule will be abided by very vast majority ( if not totality )!!!!!

2) SOL is not an arcade platform , but a navigation routing simulator , and those who have spent 40 years racing , or are still sailing irl like the idea that SOL is as close to irl as possible, thus being horrified at the idea of sli jumping ! LOL

Trust me !!!! we will resolve this , as well as other stuff that has not cropped up yet !! ;) ;) ;)

Piero
Posted by
sol


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2014-05-11 08:52:30 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
strangely enough posting as "sol " is still possible ..;)

the above was me ...of course ...WIN !! ;)

ciaoooooooooo
Posted by
bonknhoot


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2013-08-06 21:35:15
2014-05-11 09:37:28 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
Lets penalise land jumping.
Seems to me SLI jumping is akin to touching a mark IRL. IRL, you are obliged to do a 360 turn if you so do. If you don't you may get away with it but more likely a competitor (pref two) will have seen you and will protest you. Ask Ben Ainslee about this. So, even if you are not entirely filled of noble spirit, the logical thing to do is turns. Via 'Chat' we can hail each other. And lodge a protest. Screen shots of tracks provide evidence if nec. In other words, all the tools for a perfect simulation of IRL are already to hand.
Clipping along
Posted by
kroppyer


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2014-05-11 09:37:57 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
I deleted part of my previous post before posting it because I thought it was too technical and didn't add something to de discussion, what I missed is that I also deleted part of my opinion: I think server code should be changed in order to make SLI jumps impossible.

To summarize, my opinion: As long as the server allows jumping, we shouldn't manually ban it, simply because it's almost impossible to do that properly. But we should work towards a solution where the server makes it impossible to jump, and put this whole discussion behind us.

@bonk/Jan/Yohann: Screentracks are not accurate enough to be evidence of a jump. There has been occasions where the track shows that a mark was rounded on the correct side, while the boat sailing past it on the other side (on twa).

--- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2014-05-11 09:46:39 ---
Posted by
ita10267


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2008-12-29 10:33:09
2014-05-11 10:11:07 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
SLI jumping is allowed only thanks to limited performance on the server. The positions are evaluated on a discrete time-grid and, given the boatspeed, jumps of different lenght are possibile. This is therefore a BUG and it's exploitation makes SOL less close to IRL sailing. For those with less SOL experience, during the first timed races, the clock could be resetted by hitting a boundary, this was easy to correct since at the time SOL had a guy (Kalle) which can implement code modification promptly. At this time, as far as I reckon, we need to gain this coding skill again.

My personal opinion is that we should sail as close as possible to what we do IRL and pointing the bow directly across mainland is not something I would do with by boat. Crossing a SLI during a long stretch as a result of an accident is way different from deliberately change route in order to gain an advantage. Maybe I am limited in judging but I really don't see any fun in winning a race/gaining a podium position, by exploiting a known bug and after the direct opponent had declared the correct rounding. Although permitted by the server, that is truly not fair.

I guess there are few wayouts in order of difficulty:

1) Seamanship. Yesterday, before outlaw decided differently, some sailors (Dana, Java, me) explicitly declared that a proper rounding was going to happen. I everyone else had done so, there would be nothing to discuss about.

2) RC enforced penalties. Witness protest should be needed.

3) Server modification. I see some difficulties but I can give my help if needed.

Needless to say I prefer solution #1 but I'll work toward an implementation of #3 to avoid what has happened in the 2 past ocean races.
Posted by
outlaw


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2014-05-11 10:54:37 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
A few more points...
a) A penalty system is more trouble than it's worth. Does anyone think it's OK if I do a 360 or two and take the podium?

b) really how does anyone know I didn't just point at the little island (I did) and then forget to steer in time (well OK, NO)

c) of course none of this would have happened on the high res map. Dunno about the server cost, but that would be a good place to start. Realism and all.

d) while we're at it please fix the performance mechanics for high speed gybes, that is a much worse and common exploit!

e) my jump in NZL was more as a joke, i would be surprised if that was worth 5 seconds. Also funny how no one warned me before the island...
Posted by
javakeda


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2014-05-11 12:12:54 - Re: Lets Ban Land Jumping In Ocean Races
An example from Formula 1:

In F1 racing, cutting a chicane is against the rules. But barring safety issues, the effect of that rule is simply to prevent a driver from gaining a position by cutting the chicane.

I would favor the SOL rules on land jumping in Ocean races taking a similar view.

a) declare land jumping illegal in the NOR for the 2014 Ocean Racing Series

b) expect that the jumper would voluntarily give back any position gained.

c) allow a skipper who was passed to get his position back through a protest procedure if the jumper does not do so voluntarily.

No coding is required here, just words.

The 2014 Ocean Racing Series becomes a trial venue for this rule. At the end of the year, we can evaluate whether it should be continued, expanded, amended, or discarded.

Seems like a reasonably painless way to test how well the rule will work.

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