Sailonline.org - Online Sailing

Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Tweets by @sailonline

Board » General Discussion » Stealth Mode

Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2012-01-05 13:38:07 - Re: Stealth Mode
	I'll try to make it clearer. In order to make it even (is it possible?) more similar to IRL sailing: 1) Line of sight vision in real time (i know it could be an overload if done at server side and circumvented if done at client side) 2) out-of-sight boats updates at fixed time of the day (i.e. at wx updates) If server side overload of Point 1 is too high, point 1-2 can collapse into 1-2) Fleet update at wx update only for Ocean Races (dead reckoning in between just to maintain a pseudo-real-time position?) 3) Personal stealth mode: a limited time (max 12h per race) period where, on demand from client to server, a boat can be removed from the fleet position updates as seen to the other competitors. Only for ocean races. Everybody knows that IRL following (even in OneDesign) is not that simple because usually the best boats are also the best equipped, trimmed and tuned so, after less than an hour, following results in granted disaster. In SOL this is possible because we are really sailing OD and our boats are steered and trimmed to perfection My biggest concern is that the next step if we don't find some countermeasures, will be "follow-the-leader" (i.e. follow 76T) BOTs in order to save some sleep without the risk loosing contact with the top Is it fun? Not so much. Will we find someone doing it? I bet and even if it is only one, he/her will celebrate in the chat and will be very annoying!
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2012-01-05 14:24:49 - Re: Stealth Mode
	I "sail" here, and on other sites, purely as a mental exercise, (having just passed my 78th), and have no wish to "follow" even my fellow 'Canuck'. There is, however, a point that has not been mentioned yet. If many of our fellow sailors get the feeling that they have no chance of winning except by "following", then their enthusiasm for participating in this thing will be greatly decreased, and we will see only a small number continuing to "play". If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by 76Trombones Posts 362 Registered at 2009-08-03 18:04:56	2012-01-05 16:55:29 - Re: Stealth Mode
	Just a quick note to ensure that too many boats are not tarred with the same brush: I spent an inordinate amount of energy last race maintaining position vs the fleet instead of sailing (what might be) the fastest course. Sometimes racing is like trying to pass that guy on the sidewalk that keeps wandering back and forth...
Posted by ita10267 Posts 88 Registered at 2008-12-29 10:33:09	2012-01-05 18:04:32 - Re: Stealth Mode
	As it should be.......
Posted by zero Posts 120 Registered at 2010-02-07 16:56:30	2012-01-05 20:21:01 - Re: Stealth Mode
	Here is another take on this interesting topic: During the last HOB-SYD race I was the first boat to pass point Raoul and I was leading until we reached the Bass Strait. After a few hours into the Strait I was sailing at TWA 44, close to VMG. My thinking was to clear the tip of Australia without having to tack. Them I noticed that Winston and the other VIP sailors were bearing away to about TWA 47 or probably 50. At first I didn’t understand the reason behind that move, BUT, given the fact they are the best sailors around I eased the sheets and sailed at 47 TWA. By then it was too late and I had already lost my lead. Although I didn’t see the reason early on, I have enough knowledge of sailing tactics to understand what they were doing differently, it became clear that they were sailing on some sort of VMC and were passing me (!) so I changed plans before loosing more places. I can tell you that if they were in stealth mode I would have kept going higher into the wind sailing VMG and would have lost a lot more place than the 8 places I did loose. Is this following? Am I guilt of following? To me this was a learning experience and that is and should be one of the many strengths of SOL. Antonio
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-05 23:59:53 - Re: Stealth Mode
	Very interesting comments and all valid points. However I see other areas need SoL's development BEFORE stealth happens. 1). BOATS LOG BOOK. I would love to have a log book function that records all the numerical data on the bottom of the screen, recorded with position (Lat, Long, Place)say every hour, as IRL. Also record data when one changes course 5 degrees or more or over a 5 minute period to reduce server load. Further for me, the time I go aground when I am asleep at the helm and the times eventually I wake up again. Further as an encouragement for ALL those in position 50+ and new sailors etc, what my position would of been had I NOT fallen asleep and gone aground . . . yet again. I would of finished in position 85th but because of groundings, I am my usual 157th!! LOL!! This would only need to be available "on demand" as and when I want to look at it, again to save server loads. Ideally graphical data could be more useful to new sailors and save a lot of excel graphing for others. I see this as another "LINK" within the Leaderboard & Manuals etc Tab. 2. STEERING PRECISION. SoL is so VERY fortunate that I can sail WITHIN 1/100th of a compass degree. IRL WHAT RUBBISH!! Down wind I am quite accurate in my steering to within 2 or 3 degrees. Reaching my accuracy is not so good, but on the wind my steering within 5 to 10 degrees depending upon sea state is often the best I can manage. About the same as a lot of autopilots and wind vanes IRL with waves and stronger winds. The one constant in yacht racing is that the "WIND IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING". I suggest removing the "stupid" decimals of compass courses, and possibly introducing some randomness to reflect the IRL steering situation, more randomness when close hauled and yet more again in stronger winds. 3. WIND SHADOWS. In SoL, we race around flat coral treeless island with minimal wind disruption and the same happens at Cape Horn, Norway, Alaska and currently when going around Iceland. Honest!! Mountains have NO valleys and do NOT block or funnel the winds. Some ranmdomness here could be a solution. Sail in close and get becalmed or blasts as opposed to staying offshore, sailing a slightly longer course, for a more constant breeze should be choices with gains and losses as IRL. Summary: Sorry to Thread Drift, but STEALTH should not be the #1 priority. SoL's stated aims for "as real as possible" to me is more important, IMHO. If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by ShamrockPirate Posts 189 Registered at 2010-12-03 17:49:57	2012-01-06 01:07:22 - Re: Stealth Mode
	A very interesting thread and another prime example of how the SOL community embraces and discusses an issue. As I see it, the fundamental issue is the Follow-the-Leader behavior. I would offer possible(but improbable) alternative suggestions to "stealth" idea though it would certainly play havoc with the all-important rankings-- or perhaps those smarter than me would have add-on ideas/solutions. Since the basic idea is not to follow the VIPs, as they have been designated, don't have them in a position to always lead. Performance Starts: Have 3 different start times for a single race. The Top10 (or 20 or 25 or 50, whatever) start +2hrs. The next bracket (50-100), start +1hr, all others start at designated time. Example: Start time for >SYC100 rank or non-member @ 1200UTC // SYC25-100 start 1300UTC // SYC 1-25 start 1400UTC. (No idea how to handicap this for results) Random Starts: Instead of assigning start time by performance, make it random by login time with three divisions (same start time delays as above). Server knows what number you are when you log on to race (I think) Login #1,4,7,10, etc are in Division I, #2,5,8,11, etc are in Division II, #3,6,9,12,etc are in Division III. (No idea how to handicap this for results) These ideas would not completely solve the FTL behavior as it would likely occur within the divisions, but since the winds would be different for any given race with differing start times, there would be no point in following the boats ahead as they have a different wind/position throughout a given race. NoName Race: Assign a boat number on login instead of the name. We all know the top-tier SOLers, so make a race with the boat name masked. I know this would then become obvious who is who in chat but just an idea. Many races are won/lost in the early decision-making so this is a way to "hide" where the pros are going early on. Don't know if the chat identity can be masked. I would also resurrect my long-held desire for racing Divisions or multi-polar races with handicapping as per previous Forum threads, but that is a side-topic, though I can see where it is similar to the Performance Start suggestion above. Great discussion! SP
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-06 02:11:42 - Re: Stealth Mode
	MULTI CHOICE COURSES. Most of the SoL courses have sensible courses and often follow the IRL races. Great and do NOT change e.g. Sydney - Hobart. As an addition to the occasional "timed" race, what about a race around Iceland going in EITHER direction. At least 30% of the fleet will "follow the OTHER leader". Perhaps a course to weave between 3, 4 or 5 islands. A 5 island course could have rules that "one sails passing with at least two Islands on the "port" side and at least two Islands on the Starboard side. There could be "gates" between the islands but we should try both with and without gates before any final decision or just keep alternatives open. The comparision for this is the old Admirals' Cup or Solent UK racing where upon rounding a mark, there is a choice of which side one sails on to the next mark. Often the first boat(s) went one way and the next boat(s) went to the opposite shore. This is often current/tidal based decisions and SoL does not have Tides and Currents, but courses with choices about which way should be possible. Perhaps even figure "8" courses around a series of islands as long as your tracks cross and all islands are passed on both sides. So should one tack between islands, alternate sides, pass several islands on a straight run or do s zigzag course first and then the last leg home as a straight run, passing through previous tracks that made loops, rather like sewing zigzag by hand. Choices yes but follow which leader??? --- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2012-01-06 02:12:42 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by NZL_PaulR Posts 311 Registered at 2008-07-22 12:21:30	2012-01-06 02:25:33 - Re: Stealth Mode
	Shamrock. I agree with divisions and have suggested "Using / Not Using" planning software as two divisions. Based upon entry choice and/or a declaration at finish. I agree with Zero/Antonio that SoL is a great learning experience, and excellent chance to practice with planning software. I agree one can only cheat oneself some of the time, as stated above with the rest being "lies, dammed lies or statistics". Perhaps putting the "Top 100" boats in another division from the "Others" with the bottom 10 from the "Top 100" relegated to the "Others" wilst the first 10 are promoted from the "Others" up to the "Top 100" division. Then separate prizes for both divisions. Otherwise just a few will get the prizes. Perhaps one can win a specific prize ONCE only. This way prizes will trickle down to encourage others. I believe even the top sailors only drink from one coffee mug or wear ONE SoL Cap at a time anyway!!LOL!! If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by AGage Posts 411 Registered at 2008-12-27 10:31:57	2012-01-06 05:25:02 - Re: Stealth Mode
	There are a few posts to reposnd/reply to here: Jawz, your comment re the effort: I would say alot less effort than 76T put in... Especially as they shared in amongst the 3 of them alot of the time. Ita: LOL - I just wrote in an email almost exactly what you said in your last 2 paragrahs! Nice idea about 'self-stealth' Zero: The topic here is VERY different from what you did. PaulR: Nice thread hijack... Actually your point about wind is not quite right... Take a closer look at the map - land effects are included in the models. Re Log Book - are you prepared to do some data entry yourself, or do you want it all automatic? SP: Awesome idea about hiding boat names - it can all be done in the client and we can still put names to chat and NOT the boats... (Boats are already assigned an 'ID' when registered) Different staring time just wont work though... I started just 19 minutes late in the Hobart to Sydney, and ok I probably could have managed 15th or slightly better, but I decided to 'take a flyer' - anyway - about 4 hours into the race, I was over 30 minutes behind. @6hr, almost 40 minutes behind. See my point? (although there were times I also gained) --- Last Edited by Aaron Gage at 2012-01-06 05:27:56 --- I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__

Page: Previous 1 2 3 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Kapiti Chetwodes Race 2024

For only the second time in SOL history, we have the pleasure of inviting you to the Kapiti Chetwodes Race, held in the Cook Strait region. Organised IRL by the Royal Port Nicholson Yacht Club from Wellington in New Zealand. The approximately 160nm long route, full of turning points, will take us from the bay at RPNYC around the islands of Somes, Kapiti and Chetwodes and back to the finish line at RPNYC. We have only a 26 ft Albin 79 yacht at our disposal. All this means that we will have a lot of fun, so fair winds!
Race #1864
INFO by brainaid.de
Albin 79 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ4 - ARCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 25th 17:00 Registration will open soon

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Raja Muda Selangor 2024 - Penang to Langkawi

Welcome to the third and last online race of the Raja Muda Selangor International offshore series – a 70nm final trip further north again up the Malacca Strait from Penang to the exotic island of Langkawi, and again in Ker 40s.
Race #1871
INFO by brainaid.de
Ker 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Monday,
November 25 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 21st 04:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Raja Muda Selangor 2024 - Pangkor to Penang

Welcome to our second online offshore race in cooperation with Raja Muda Selangor International – an 80nm trip from Pangkor north to Penang up the Malacca Strait, again in Ker 40s.
Race #1870
INFO by brainaid.de
Ker 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
November 23 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 18th 04:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Two Oceans Doublecross TIMED Race 2024

Our November Timed race takes us to Cape Town near where the Atlantic and Indian oceans meet. Our ride is a beautiful ketch, the Archer 78. Starting at Cape Town, we’ll round Robben Island, then head south to round Cape Point, up around Seal Island before heading north to round Dassen Island before returning to Cape Town. This is a TIMED race, so you may RE-REGISTER HERE to try again, after finishing a run. You will have 13 days and 11 hours to test your skill and decision making after the race opens.
Race #1872
INFO by brainaid.de
Archer 78 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
TRQ4 - TRCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
30 November at 23:00 UTC
Race starts: Nov 17th 12:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Nassau to Bodo 2024

Prepare for the grand finale - the 6th and concluding leg of the RTW challenge, an odyssey from Nassau in the Caribbean to Bodø in Norway. Embracing a journey of 4000 nautical miles, this leg promises an exhilarating 18-day voyage. It also heralds the November installment of our prestigious Ocean Race Championship. Embark on a voyage of a lifetime, where prowess, tactics, and camaraderie unite in the pursuit of triumph. We eagerly await your presence at the starting line! May the winds be ever in your favor.
PRIZE: SMPF
Race# 1866
INFO from brainaid.de
Swan 65 PARTICULARS
WX updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ4 - OCCH - RTW - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 11th 11:00 Registration Closed

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client