Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Board » General Discussion » Wrong Speed VMG

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4

Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-02-12 14:14:36 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Aaron: Yachts on long ocean races can take some time to tack and get back up to speed. There is often a lot more to do than simply tacking as in harbour racing or small dinghy sailing.

Often boom(s)have preventers rigged to stop accidental gybes;

Running backstays to organise, setup and then later to tie down the leeward running backstays so they don't bang or scratch the mast, cabin top or sides and keep off watch members awake when they are trying to be asleep.

Extra staysails to dowse and rehoist

Inner forestays to setup or remove sometimes.

Cockpit(s) to tidy up, binoculars, cameras, books, iPods to go below, torches to be placed near winches for sail trimming after tacking, sunglasses, suncreams to put lids on and stow safely, biscuits and sweets to tidy up and put away so they will stay dry; Towels and other washing to remove from windward life lines.

Winch handles to find, leeward sheets to run before releasing and tacking and windward sheets to be checked that they are all set to go and not fouled by spinnaker poles, topping lifts, halyards etc and loaded onto winches;

Sails stacked on windward decks or on windward side down below;

Sewing machine to lash down (seen one fly across the saloon 3 times because others had not lashed it down)

Crew to move bunks after been woken up in the middle of their deep sleep and they also need a hot cup of coffee / tea to be made with biscuits etc;

Galley pots and pans, plates cups to wash & stow away; food lockers to shut etc.

Bilges to pump dry so the other side does not get totally wet immediately;

These days water ballast tanks to fill and drain;

Keels to "cant" (swing) to vertical and then to windward after tacking.

All the above needs to be done with half a harbour racing crew as those off watch don't want to get out of their bunks, dress for wet weather gear and harnesses just for a simple tack. Besides it is often cold, wet and dark on deck.

LOL but there really is a lot to do. You could of been on the same tack for several days. I know I must of left several items off my list, but that's a start.

--- Last Edited by Paul Rosser at 2009-02-12 14:16:34 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
AGage


Users avatar

Posts
411
Registered at
2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-02-27 08:31:48 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Well, Ive seen boats in both Sydney to Hobart, and shorter Volvo class races have tacking duels, but....

I really wanted to ask about the max performance loss, as Jakob originally posted that it shouldnt go below about 93%. Today I mistakenly didnt set a delayed gybe to be a DC, so it did it immediately, hence I gybed back, and the performance dropped to just over 86%. Would this imply that what you meant Jakob, is that max performance loss per manouvuer is about 7%, so hypothetically if I did 8 or so manouvuers that resulted in max performance loss in succession, I would have around 50% performance?
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-02-27 08:40:49 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
That's what practice sailing is all about!

Try it.

Then learn to do controlled gybes!!

Then slow up before gybing !!

No more crash gybes!!
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
AGage


Users avatar

Posts
411
Registered at
2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-03-07 01:18:46 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
NZL_PaulR said @ 2009-02-27 08:40:49:
Then learn to do controlled gybes!!

Then slow up before gybing !!
=======================
Hmmm and here I thought the cardinal rule for a smooth gybe was to go into it as fast as possible? Yes you want to minimize the angle between them, and yes I have practiced both tacking and gybing using different techniques to hopefully minimize the performance loss, but they basically all work out the same... going from twa140 to -140 is basically the same as doung it in 4 or more smaller manouvuers...

I am still of the opinion, that 7+nm to regain 100% performance after a tack is a bit excessive... I said before that my experiene on large yachts is limited, but Paul, if all those things you mention in your above post happen every time you tack, Id say "thats ridiculous"... And if some of them do... well how does securing winch handles effect performance? And on a well crewed boat, they shouldnt need to be searched for prior to a manouvuer...
Once you have your sails trimmed for the new tack, which should not take 7nm to do, then it doesnt take long for the boat to sail up to speed again??

--- Last Edited by RainbowChaser at 2013-07-26 09:20:20 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-03-07 07:48:33 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
The key words are "long ocean races".

If you have been on the one board for a week or even two weeks, not everything is put away correctly as in a day sail in rough water / strong breeze.

People are messy, and leave stuff lying around. You only need one "messy" on a yacht and soon the whole place is untidy.

If it is just you and your family, you can be definitive in your requests as a parent and use those well practiced home sayings:
to "put things away" and
"tidy your (room) = bunk space. (Dad's grumpy again, it wasn't me etc will be the chorus you hear.)

The old nautical saying is:
"Every thing in its place and a place for everything".

Introduce strangers (non-immediate family) and you loose all authority and mess just happens. Imagine your nephews and nieces all sharing the lounge with you, all day; sleeping eating & living.

Not everybody will put clothes away in their seabag or on their bunk.

So yes on a long cruise, annoying little banging noises from winch handles banging on cockpit sides whilst in pockets, running backstay blocks etc all get silenced, taped up, tied off, to stop annoying continual banging etc.

So by the time you do this for 10+ days, lots of items get "left" there in case a person need them later or for when they need it again on their next watch, yes that soon.

So yes your inexperience shows for "Long ocean races".

Some boats are not that bad, others worse. Just like those kitchen cupboards for pots & pans, the plastic container cupboard etc. Imagine tacking your kitchen frol leaning 20 ~ 25 degrees to the left, then 20 ~ 25 degrees to the right.

Like ours, there would be a big mess as not everything is perfectly stacked!
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2009-03-07 08:02:15 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
AGage said @ 2009-03-07 01:18:46:
. . . well how does securing winch handles effect performance? And on a well crewed boat, they shouldnt need to be searched for prior to a manouvuer...
There may only be one or two winch handles on deck, so you have to get the other 4 handles up on deck and take at least one to the mast. You may well have a headsail, staysail, mizzen staysail that will all require a winch each + boom preventers, travellers, running backstays. so 6 winch handles disappear to a winch quickly.

Racing: a well found crew. Yes but only half may be awake and the other s off watch don't want to be disturbed. so you have only half a crew.

Some will not be sleeping where you think they should. They have made a "compfy hide away cave" in amoungst the sails.

Others are head first down a quarter berth so that their head is in the darker space and could therefore get to sleep more easily and at first glance, you would miss them.

Others will suggest serious disagreement with your heritage and upbringing and will positive suggest you look further afield for help. LOL
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
Hew


Users avatar

Posts
36
Registered at
2008-12-15 00:35:22
2009-03-07 14:51:55 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
Any gybe involves many little things, but getting the boat turned and the sails trimmed on the new side, take precedence over all others. Once the sails are trimmed, the boat accelerates up to 99.9% speed in a short time. The last .1% is made up when the tidying up process is complete.

Any preparation time spent "getting ready", is done while the boat is at full speed, before the turn is started.
Posted by
AGage


Users avatar

Posts
411
Registered at
2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-03-08 10:31:16 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
My thoughts exactly... I just thought it obvious so didnt bother to actually write it in a post... The manouvuer itself shouldnt take that long... prep maybe, but that, as Hew remarks, is all pre manouvuer...
I still contend boat takes far to long to regain 100% perf, as stated, 7nm+ is a long damn way.
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
AGage


Users avatar

Posts
411
Registered at
2008-12-27 10:31:57
2009-03-08 10:41:17 - Re: Wrong Speed VMG
NZL_PaulR said @ 2009-03-07 08:02:15:
Racing: a well found crew. Yes but only half may be awake and the other s off watch don't want to be disturbed. so you have only half a crew.

Some will not be sleeping where you think they should. They have made a "compfy hide away cave" in amoungst the sails.

Others are head first down a quarter berth so that their head is in the darker space and could therefore get to sleep more easily and at first glance, you would miss them.

Others will suggest serious disagreement with your heritage and upbringing and will positive suggest you look further afield for help. LOL
=======================
Well i) if half crew is asleep then you should still have enough concious crew to man the boat properly...
ii) If they want to win races, and especially if they have signed up for a 12000nm race they should be better behaved and not complain... And i am sure i have seen crew sleeping in hammocks that simple swing with boat heel...
But this is getting way off topic now, so 'I RETIRE'...
see u back at the bar ;-)

--- Last Edited by RainbowChaser at 2013-07-26 09:19:50 ---
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Raja Muda Selangor 2025 - Pangkor to Penang

Welcome back on board your J-109 for our second online offshore race in cooperation with the Raja Muda Selangor International organisation – an 80nm trip from Pangkor north up the Malacca Strait to Penang.
Race #1962
INFO by brainaid.de
J-109 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
Race starts: Nov 17th 04:00 Registration will open soon

▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Raja Muda Selangor 2025 - Port Klang to Pangkor

Sailonline is delighted to be able to offer online sailors an opportunity to once again compete in all three of the offshore races of the Raja Muda Selangor International race week, organised by the Royal Selangor Yacht Club in association with the RORC, and commencing with a 75nm trip from Port Klang to Pangkor. This year we will be racing this race, and the other two, which together will count towards our Sailonline Raja Muda Series (RMS), in J-109s.
Race #1961
INFO by brainaid.de
J-109 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
Race starts: Nov 15th 04:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Africa by Sea 2025 - Suez to Port Said


When Napoleon (briefly) occupied Egypt at the turn to the 19th C, he ordered his expedition’s Directeur des Ponts et Chaussées, Jacques-Marie Le Père, to evaluate the ancient, derelict, infilled course of a Ptolemaic canal connecting the Red Sea to the Nile via the Great Bitter Lake, versus a new canal to the Mediterranean directly. Neither were considered feasible – locks to climb a pauvre-surveyed 10m sea-level difference, or continuous dredging of the Nile, would both be equally financially prohibitive. Fifty years passed before the unlikeliness of Le Père’s survey finding was challenged and a French Compagnie Universelle du Canal Maritime de Suez obtained a 99-year concession from the Khedive of Egypt, Said Pasha, to construct and operate a canal from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean, much against the will of the Ottoman Sultan, Abdulmecid I (the Pasha’s nominal overlord), and the wishes of the (Irish) British prime minister, Lord Palmerston. The year was 1859, the very number of this race (planning, dear boy, planning!), which, despite the canal’s double-super-tanker gauge and lack of locks, is strictly prohibited IRL. 85nm in Fareast 28Rs to complete your circumnavigation of Africa!
Race #1859
INFOby brainaid.de
Fareast 28R PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - ABS
Race starts: Nov 12th 17:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Round Hong Kong TIMED Race 2025

This month’s TIMED race takes us to the hectic, bustling sea lanes of the South China Sea for a 118 nm race beginning and ending in Hong Kong rounding several of the 260 nearby islands along the way. The boat for this race is the South African built Cape 31. This is a TIMEDrace so you may RE-REGISTER HEREto try again after finishing a run. You will have 13 days and 11 hours to test your skill and decision making after the race opens.
Race #1964
INFOby brainaid.de
Cape 31 Particulars
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
TRQ4 - TRCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
22 November at 23:00 UTC
Race starts: Nov 09th 12:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Fernando de Noronha to Faroe 2025

The RWW Series concludes with a spectacular journey from Fernando de Noronha to the Faroe Islands, a legendary destination in the wild North Atlantic. Panning 4,100 nautical miles, this leg will be a true test of endurance, strategy, and sheer determination. Also the penultimate leg of the 2025 Ocean Championship, it’s your chance to prove your mettle against the sea, the wind, and yourself. We’ll be racing aboard the Ragamuffin 100, a vessel built for speed and challenge — demanding planning, precision and grit from every sailor on deck. Do you have what it takes to master the Northern Atlantic?.
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1960
INFO by brainaid.de
Ragamuffin 100 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RWW - OCQ4 - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 03rd 11:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Sinbad by Balloon 2025 - Carnarvon to Dondra


From here, our home in Bharatavarṣa is now north west of us – said Sinbad to his fellow balloonists. Perhaps we can ride the wind first further north, and then catch the winds that every year bring the rain, perhaps not. It’s 2600nm and we could be aloft awhile, so, Master el-Quarters, victuals only, no sandbags, provisioning the giant hamper. It will be not a picnic!
Race #1886
INFOby brainaid.de
SOL Balloon PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - SBB
Race starts: Oct 15th 11:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

  1. Sailonline Yacht Club Member KaSToR
  2. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CriticalHippo
  3. Sailonline Yacht Club Member WRmirekd
  4. Sailonline Yacht Club Member vida
  5. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rafa
  6. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CollegeFund
  7. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Panpyc
  8. Sailonline Yacht Club Member BRENTGRAY
  9. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Sax747
  10. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Kipper1258

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client