Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Board » General Discussion » Mark rounding

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next

Posted by
NOR_Jawik


Users avatar

Posts
70
Registered at
2008-08-31 20:55:18
2011-07-18 05:22:53 - Re: Mark rounding
ISAF Right of Way Rules.

I'll never forget the first time I attended SOL and sailed after ISAF Right of Way Rules in the South Atlantic. Took a couple of days before I discovered that no one else went according to ISAF :-)
Posted by
AGage


Users avatar

Posts
411
Registered at
2008-12-27 10:31:57
2011-07-18 06:30:56 - Re: Mark rounding
I'm glad you mentioned Rule #2 Paul as that was almost the entirety of my point...

Sportsmanship....

OK - PetrM claims he/she does not sail IRL - but honestly - the arrows on, and the rhumblines themselves, make it pretty darn clear how to round a mark... (IMO)
AND it seems there was plenty of shouting in the chat at the time.
So really no excuse to not know the correct way to round a mark. If we are going to get so technical with what is WRITTEN as SOL rules, then where will it end? Boatsitting (dare i raise it) is so ambiguous it isn't funny... We all know (or should) the spirit of what is required for sailing a course. And ignorance of a rule is never excuse to break it. And like i said - I find it very hard to believe the current #2 overall does not know how to round a mark properly...

76T - if you round twice clockwise then once anti - well you have wasted so much time that is that really a consideration? And i was more meaning it would prevent immediate unwinding like happened here - mark was 'Leave to Starboard' but was actually left to Port...
Like any IRL regatta the NOR *should* form part of the racing instructions...

===================

ISAF right of way rules on SOL would just be silly...
No to mention next to impossible to accurately implement in a discrete time step sim like this (or any! unless said time step is, like, 100ms) - consider that boat length would need to be known by the server - by you - by the client to accurately represent the boat such that you could avoid it (and what about zoom?)... AND what happens if a boat whose skipper has not logged in for 24hrs breaks the rule?? Auto 360° penalty by the server? Hmmm - even more for the server to do... Not to mention that often an auto-pen would result in more infringements!
No, bad idea all round...
I help develop the client interface for the best online ocean racing sim there is... __/)/)_/)__
Posted by
NZL_PaulR


Users avatar

Posts
311
Registered at
2008-07-22 12:21:30
2011-07-18 11:34:13 - Re: Mark rounding
Thanks for your comments about Right of Way rules.

I agree too difficult for new SoL sailors, and those who work, travel and go sailing a lot IRL.

Nothing like floating the odd idea about as we stumble through life.

Cheers





--- Last Edited by NZL_PaulR at 2011-07-18 11:36:09 ---
If it breaks, it's not strong enough!
Posted by
A2


Users avatar

Posts
347
Registered at
2009-10-26 00:39:42
2011-07-18 13:32:06 - Re: Mark rounding
* This field is required. *

--- Last Edited by A2R at 2012-02-10 07:15:08 ---
None so blind
Posted by
76Trombones


Users avatar

Posts
362
Registered at
2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-18 14:14:57 - Re: Mark rounding
Rule 2 is often misunderstood and thrown around in situations like this. Normally, someone feels aggrieved because someone is doing something "unfair" that is permitted by the rules. Class associations have a great time with this one: "Johnny's boat is unsportsmanlike because he has a new carbon fibre tiller and the rest of us have stock wood ones" is not a rule 2 violation. Either the Class rules specify tiller material or they don't.

For the most part, it applies to boats that intentionally disadvantage another boat without benefiting from doing so (you are allowed to legally slow another boat so long as your race or series score is defended or improved)

Ramming another boat on purpose so that they can't complete the regatta would be an extreme example. Close-cover blanketing a boat while the fleet passes a more subtle one.

Rule 2 doesn't apply to situations covered by other rules (that is what they are *for*). Breaking one of them and then not taking a penalty is a rule 2 violation.

The course that some of the fleet took was absolutely correct according to the server and everything written on SOL, hence no rule 2 violation. If we don't like it we need to fix it.

All sports/games have just enough rules (yes written ones) so that everyone has fun. It's fine to argue that "SOL shouldn't need rules" but if so we shouldn't holler when the non-existent rules get broken.
Posted by
76Trombones


Users avatar

Posts
362
Registered at
2009-08-03 18:04:56
2011-07-18 14:25:47 - Re: Mark rounding
And from a complete devil's advocate point of view:

PetrM was leading the race and saw that there were two legal options. If he had sailed on the East side, he would have lost position had the chasing boats exercised the option. He had no way to know what they'd do. Yes he could have sailed on and crossed fingers, but if another boat had ducked behind him and won I'd be defending *that* boat's actions under the rules and based on recent precedent. It's a race.

The problem is the rule, not the result, and all boats involved in this and every other rule dispute (routing, boatsitting) have always said that they will comply with any changes.



Posted by
PetrM


Users avatar

Posts
7
Registered at
2008-12-31 13:00:19
2011-07-18 19:49:06 - Re: Mark rounding
Believe me or not:
I did not have intention to brake any known rule.
I was at lead at the mark and just one boat was within striking distance. My move (within SOL rules and outside ISAF) did not help me past any boat.

If you believe, that while being in the lead I broke unwritten rule from IRL race sailing intentionally and dishonest myself within SOL community for just another win, feel free to judge.

Thank You for education about ISAF rules. I will apply ISAF rule for my future rounding whether will be enforced by server or not.

I would like this kind of incident and personal suicide could not happen to others in future and their learning curve would be much easier than my. To eliminate future incidents we should appreciate value of 76Trombones input to this case.
It should be helpful update code for mark rounding (as stated) as I believe automatic rule enforcing is necessary. Because solving protest by committee would waste time of all participants. This time should be used for much useful thing (such as development of SOL :-) ). Another step is to update rules in manual.
Until rules enforcement will be updated, it should be helpful setup races with knowledge of current limits of server code.

Best regards
Posted by
mustang_sally


Users avatar

Posts
24
Registered at
2011-04-23 14:01:51
2011-07-18 20:05:23 - Re: Mark rounding
Petrm

As soon as you backtracked on yourself, you were told by many others in chat that you wern't allowed to do it, but you chose to ignore them, and you didnt even bother to ask why, or even acknowledge those who were talking to you. So this is why you have left a lot of bad feeling with most sailors in SOL.
So personally I believe that you sailed in a very unsportsmanlike manner as you had plenty of time to right your wrong but you decided to sail on!
Posted by
Tempest


Users avatar

Posts
79
Registered at
2009-06-16 17:44:17
2011-07-18 20:39:31 - Re: Mark rounding
Although i was not present at all, just a some small points .

Some people do not follow chat as they are racing so indeed they will not answer.

If the mark says rounded and stay's rounded while backtracking why should you doubt your decision if you thought it was OK ?

And even if you knew it was a loophole in the programming aren't you allowed to use that loophole as for instance SLI jumping.

Seems some people forget it is a GAME.

Tempest

Posted by
NZL_undercover


Users avatar

Posts
65
Registered at
2009-07-31 03:29:32
2011-07-18 21:14:21 - Re: Mark rounding
I think the mark issue is very easily sorted out as far as island roundings go...........have a second mark which forces you to go the right way so that there is no other option:ie Mark 1 and 1a simple:_)

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Christmas to Christmas Island 2025

Two waypoints, start and finish, and between them 5827 NM of two oceans. Not much time if we want to sit at the Christmas Eve table. You will need to maintain an average speed of over 10 knots, maybe quite possible with this Maxi Trimaran, but prepare your vessel well and choose the best of the many possible routes. Hands up everyone who knew there were TWO Christmas Islands?! OK, maybe you have sailed this Sailonline course before... but it's time to get ready for the 2025 challenge of racing between Christmas Island in the Pacific to Christmas Island in the Indian Ocean! It also marks the conclusion of our prestigious Ocean Race Championship 2025. Please have fun! Fair winds!
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1967
INFO by brainaid.de
Maxi Trimaran PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ4 - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Dec 01st 11:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Andaman Islands PYOC 2025


The Andaman Islands are an archipelago, made up of 200 islands, in the northeastern Indian Ocean. Together with the Nicobar Islands to their south, the Andamans serve as a maritime boundary between the Bay of Bengal to the west and the Andaman Sea to the east. These waters will be the theater of our next 240nm race in the ARCH 2025 series. Which one you choose depends only on you, i.e. your Elan 410 sport will leave the Andaman Islands on the starboard or port side.
Race #1965
INFO from brainaid.de
Elan 410 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ4 - ARCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Monday,
December 1 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 24th 17:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Sinbad by Balloon 2025 - Carnarvon to Dondra


From here, our home in Bharatavarṣa is now north west of us – said Sinbad to his fellow balloonists. Perhaps we can ride the wind first further north, and then catch the winds that every year bring the rain, perhaps not. It’s 2600nm and we could be aloft awhile, so, Master el-Quarters, victuals only, no sandbags, provisioning the giant hamper. It will be not a picnic!
Race #1886
INFOby brainaid.de
SOL Balloon PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC - SBB
RACE CLOSE: Tuesday,
December 9 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Oct 15th 11:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

  1. Sailonline Yacht Club Member KaSToR
  2. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CriticalHippo
  3. Sailonline Yacht Club Member WRmirekd
  4. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rafa
  5. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CollegeFund
  6. Sailonline Yacht Club Member vida
  7. Sailonline Yacht Club Member bonknhoot
  8. Sailonline Yacht Club Member BRENTGRAY
  9. Sailonline Yacht Club Member sassy63
  10. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Panpyc

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client