Login
Support Sailonline
If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!
Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!
Board
»
General Discussion
»
PROPOSAL: LIMITATION on the # of DCs
Please login to post a reply.
|
Posted by Jawz  |
|
|
So! We continue with the arguments that existed when I joined 2 years ago!
I agree with Rainbow here, there will always be class distinction in life. I remember in the early races that my wife said "Its just a game George!". Problem was that as I continued my results improved. I could never break through as they say into the top 20 boats and thought that just maybe I should get some software. "Its just a game George" She said again. Suitably reprimanded I carried on and spent more time at the helm. Hey! I got a 19 result! Bingo Lesson 1, Time at helm=Low result! Ocean races continue to be my nemisis here on SOL so my strategy was to put in hellishly demanding hours on the weekend races mostly. Secondly, I made it my aim to better my worst result counting towards the rankings. This resulted in me getting to number 3 in the overall rankings last year. Currently I am at 19 using this strategy only and I only have one win since joining 2 years ago!. All without any routing software, honestly, and with my SOL "School of Hard Knocks Certificate"! I know I need to take myself to the next level by getting hold of software so that I can compete in the "Formula 1" section of our membership as it were. My personal problem here is that my internet data bundles cost me hard cash and Im not convinced that it is worth it. Food, Beer and Whisky budgets will NOT be tampered with says the "boss lady"! My Point? If it is not broken dont try to fix it! SOL is a great learning hobby as it is(as I can say with experience). We as sailors here have the choice - Compete or Cruise! Finally. I made a suggestion once that we should expand the icons on the client to include such things as; Deckhand - Novice sailor Skipper - Member that is in the top 100 ranking. Master Mariner - Top 10 ranking sailor Add to this another icon indicating Router/Non Router. Add to this another set of icons indicating for example - races completed. This shows the "Age" of each Sol sailor. Based on this icon we could "click" on the client page to see who is leading the various categories. Just as we can now group the various nations in the client. I feel that this might go a small way to resolve our sailors requirement to see how well they are doing. This would also add further user appeal to all newcomers. Sorry for the long-winded rant but I think these comments provide more food for thought to the SOL gods!!! Keep up the good work guys, Ive really enjoyed my play here and I will carry on despite the issues raised here. Maybe just tweek the client a little as I suggest to freshen up our enjoyment? |
|
|
Posted by 76Trombones  |
|
|
This is a much more useful discussion than we normally have...
From point of view of someone alternating SOTP (not guessing, but no math/spreadsheets etc) and software (in-house), I look at this problem as what will help me beat my alter ego. Steering accuracy - if it affects everyone, routers gain. Isn't optimising what integer to be on exactly the sort of gain that starts to stack up in the theoretical updateless ocean? Number of DC - if it affects everyone, routers gain. Same deal. It's trivial to code a max-speed line for a given number of course changes. I can guess SOTP, but it's an extra burden and I'll still be slower than me. The proposal to pull the SOL gribs is obviously a stop-gap for the reasons mentioned, but at the same time I'm starting to see the introduction of brainWx as much of the fuel behind the latest round. We used to have a scant handful of boats that could sail SOL weather, and the other routers did not factor anywhere nearly as heavily into the argument. Nothing has changed at the top (and I don't think for one second that *anything* we do will change that) but there is now an incrementally growing fleet sailing faster than they used to and consistently finishing ahead of some of our fast SOTP boats. Looking back from the top 5 they add considerable fun to the game, and are proof of the argument that it isn't the software that winds races. From SOTP who used to have a shot at top 10 (and handily beat the non-SOLWx routers) but now places 30+ for the same effort I understand the resentment. We currently have a half-dozen? boats with independent access to SOL Wx. Ask them nicely. FWIW pre-brainWx I had this discussion with Inco and came to a handshake agreement. Restricting routing data to public sources is true to IRL, and compliance is sportsmanlike. That's the easiest no-work-for-SOL option I can see. The primary suggestion was to meddle with the server-side weather. Wx sent to the client would be forecast only, and would differ from instruments. This matches IRL nicely. We'd go through a transition that would be a bit confusing to those used to the current way, but *new* boats would have no trouble at all. The predictor would get less accurate, and I think the onscreen polar could use a better indicator of current twa, but it wouldn't be bad. IF we combined that with fancier weather (in the background) we'd get shuffling in the fleet, and that would add quite a bit to the game. Since we're now talking about fantasy wishlists I'd suggest sending pure .5d Wx to the client for the first 12-24h regardless of map size and then progressively thinning it. We'd get nicer forecasts (and eliminate 3rd party data sources) and maintain bandwidth. Use the gust field in the NOAA data to introduce small scale variation in TWD/TWS. SOTP me would be on even footing with router me, and glued-to-screen me is given a handy edge over both. There will be passing in races, boats will be pointing different directions a bit more often, the start "shockwave" will blur sooner... Decoupling the forecast from the real wind brings us closer to IRL, adds an element of excitement/chance that is missing from the current march toward inevitability, wind holes become less of a tar-pit, reduces the criticality of being awake for updates a bit, rewards effort... etc. From an *arms-race* point of view, I suppose it favours multi-skipper boats (but what doesn't) and it adds impetus to the eventual development of bots. |
|
|
Posted by ita10267  |
|
|
76T,
as usual your comments is full of really useful insight. And I am not sure I have understood it entirely. NOAA gust field would be a great add-on but I guess it requires some workload on the server-side programmers. It will add an enormous amount of reality to the simulation. But wouldn't it swipe away the "freeware" routing software which are not programmed to use that field? On the other hand, our customly built routers will include this effect in a blink of the eye and gain on the others. Distinguishing the first 3-6h from the rest of the wx prediction would also add a lot of "reality" but I cannot come to a suggestion on how to do it. Simply randomizing the windfield would lead to unpredictable results. Adding random rotation may be better. but really I cannot see (my limit) a possible way. I definitely agree that this kind of discussion is really fruitful and again, my concern, because I can see it doable in a couple of days, is the development of bots running alone and navigating without the need of user control. I still like waking up at 2AM and logging to see where you boat is  |
|
|
Posted by 76Trombones |
|
|
I'd (as a first pass) use the gust data to manipulate windspeed *and* direction over a high-res space/time subgrid server-side. Make the shift proportional to the diff between gust and average, with a random multiplier. Some coding from SOL would be needed, but it's not excessive. I bet we could rustle up some volunteers...
Yes it would be a real blow to the routers not running custom software. It would hit the custom sort too. That's the point, I suppose. Yes I'd use the gust field for additional insight, but it would give statistical advantage, not help setting DC. I'd do the same SOTP, and should do, as I'd do the same IRL. We'd get much more interesting racing in light wind, and adding noise would help break up the grid effect. More racing-line options would open up, and we'd have to treat laylines etc with more caution. I suppose the (not routing, but another can of worms) counter would be VMCpilots. Not quite a bot, and present in the "other" games. The data thinning idea is mostly an aside, but would get us better wind in-game. Just dropping every second timestep after the first few would pay for the extra detail, and I think the client would handle it as is. I'd actually *enjoy* the option to sail a true bot (not forbidden by the rules) but only with full disclosure, non-ranking, and bot-class invisible to the fleet until uncloak on entering the finish area. Cheaper than building IRL autonomous boats and easier to recover when things go wrong . |
|
|
Posted by zero  |
|
|
Andrea,
I have tremenduous respect for your skills as a sailor, but I am affraid that any changes in the "internal behavior" of the SOL game would cause more harm than good. Antonio "zero" |
|
|
Posted by zero |
|
|
To everyone,
In the past I was against the implementation of "divisions", and sometimes I wrote hash things here in this forum against the proponents of class divisions. I am changing my mind, and I am doing this here in this forum without shame. I am affraid that this excessive use of outside software will discourage and eventually make a great number of sailors quit. The creation of "divisions" may bring back the sailors who left and prevent some of us to leave. We already have an improptu division in place, the long races and the weekend races. Note that the podium in the weekend races are full of new "names" and very difficult to predict until the last hour of the race. Perhaps because there are no "software" involved, I don't know the answer. But I do know that some of us are having more fun during the short races than the long ones. I am not a programer but I don't see how we could prevent someone to use outside help automatically and beside I strongly think SOL must welcome everyone, the SOTP and the ones who enjoy coding and using software. I have to agree with Agage that we could start a class division based on a "code-of-honor" where the sailor declare at the registration of the race which class he/she wants to race under. At the registration of the race we would see two boxes for two different classes, you pick one. Then there would have two leaderboards under different tabs. Yes, I know that there will be "transgressions", unfortunately life is not that simple but I can almost garantee that 99.99% of us would happily stick with the "code-of-honor". Sorry for long post. Antonio (zero) |
|
|
Posted by ita10267 |
|
|
I think we have to keep up this very interesting discussion with a medium-term timeline.
At the moment we have a definite set of rules and as the usage of softwares is allowed and put at the same level as not using software I would not see a class split. Winning in SOL (weekend/ocean or whatever) is a mixture of tactical sailing skills, online devotion, software and, most of the times luck. 76T is right when he notices that the competition has become fierce. So fierce that it has raced again the point of tactical skills. The last RTW race is a clear demonstration of that and I am not mistaken if I say that it has been enjoyed by most of the participants. Do we want different rules for the future? Do we want to suggest technical improvements that will help to add reality to this spectacular simulator? YES. We want to attract new sailors and avoid the loss of the old one? WE DO. I feel sad when I see people hinting to unfair advantage so I will do my best in supporting with my (little) knowledge anyone who has in mind the same development that I have. 76T has come with some interesting proposal, so we have a good starting point. I would add a VMC/VMG(upwind-downwind) autopilot which is very easy to implement at client side. enough a. |
|
|
Posted by Tempest  |
|
|
76 to see if i understand you correctly
- it would be possible to create a diversion such that actual weather in SOL no longer matches the forecasted winds. - would this diversion be reset at WX updates and develop again in the next six hours. - is it possible to load a start grib from NOAA into SOL server at race start and let serverside "create" its own weather independent from NOAA gribs from there on for the total length of a race ? rgds Tempest |
|
|
Posted by 76Trombones |
|
|
That's the basic intention Tempest. The weather that the boats actually sail to would only be known to the server and real-time on your instruments/polar. This works out much closer to IRL. Decoupling the forecast from the weather even a little bit removes the "to-the-numbers" precision that the routers use.
The weather would update exactly the same way, we'd just get some variation in speed and angle within the 6h window. Even forgetting about the whole routing issue, implementing gusts (I think) would add some zest to gameplay. It would be a fairly invisible change to SOL - the interface stays exactly the same, updates etc run the same way. The predictor would be a little bit less predictable (twa drift in pos, cc in time, so same as now) and instruments would match the map a bit less than they do at present (which is already a bit variable, with no effect on gameplay whatsoever). I imagine that people would have to be a little more careful on roundings and headlands, which could also be viewed as an improvement. Short races would not be decided purely on mouseclicks and connection lag, allowing boats to navigate in a slightly more seamanlike way and not get so badly penalised. I *like* the idea of reinforcing that the forecast is just that. Yes it would make SOL just a little bit more random. A little less surgical precision wouldn't be a bad thing maybe. Could we run our own weather? Yes... and it would be a beautiful thing. Awesome. Absolutely the ultimate goal. Then get the bandwidth load off the SOL server and share it around the fleet and we could run absolutely state of the art real time Wx. |
|
|
Posted by Rod  |
|
|
A point that no one seems to have made (yet) is that SOL is just a little more advanced than the old Pacman games running on Commodore 20 computers.
Modern computer gaming has changed radically, to very detailed visual scenery and to much more sophisticated user-control. (I do not participate in "World of Warcraft" and such other modern games, but it is obvious that SOL is laughably primitive in comparison) I do play (on my own) a sailboat racing game on 'Virtual Sailor 4' by Ilan Papini. It, in no way, can be used as direct competition with SOL or any other sailboat-racing game, BUT it has visible boats, waves, clouds, sun, stars, moon, craters on the moon, sails, steering wheels, sheet winches, land, harbours, large freighters, motor cruisers, etc, etc. The whole thing is downloadable FREE for the demo, $25 for the whole thing, and IT IS ALL CONTAINED ON MY COMPUTER, with internet access if I could find someone to race with. My point here is that it CAN be done. You CAN steer your own boat by hand, and see it too, as it moves over the waves. AND you can also navigate on a chart, even do it with a sextant and Sun-star sights if you choose. You can even go ashore and wander around amongst the buildings of a town! It CAN be DONE. We COULD have a program that contained it all, with a router built-in and available to all, and people could add the plans etc of their favourite towns, just as they can with Virtual Sailor. The server load would not be greatly changed, because all these details would be in a purchased, downloaded program at the time of registration. All the server would need to do would be the weather, the boat positions, and the race-course layout----which is what it does NOW---(and the world map would only be downloaded ONCE). If you need to check on the accuracy of my description of Virtual Sailor, just do the free download demo, become familiar with its capability, and then tell me politely that this idea could absolutely NEVER be made to work, and that SOL must never be changed or improved, (except of course for a few special allowances for popular and frequent winners) p.s. I do not work for, I have no financial interest in, have never met or known Ilan Papini, and am not a 'stake-holder' in any aspect of Virtual Sailor, whatsoever. If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy. |
Races
Next Race: 00d 00h 00m
Current Races:
Kapiti Chetwodes Race 2024
For only the second time in SOL history, we have the pleasure of inviting you to the Kapiti Chetwodes Race, held in the Cook Strait region. Organised IRL by the Royal Port Nicholson Yacht Club from Wellington in New Zealand. The approximately 160nm long route, full of turning points, will take us from the bay at RPNYC around the islands of Somes, Kapiti and Chetwodes and back to the finish line at RPNYC. We have only a 26 ft Albin 79 yacht at our disposal. All this means that we will have a lot of fun, so fair winds!
Race #1864
INFO by brainaid.de
Albin 79 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ4 - ARCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 25th 17:00 Registration Open!
GO TO RACE
Raja Muda Selangor 2024 - Penang to Langkawi
Welcome to the third and last online race of the Raja Muda Selangor International offshore series – a 70nm final trip further north again up the Malacca Strait from Penang to the exotic island of Langkawi, and again in Ker 40s.
Race #1871
INFO by brainaid.de
Ker 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Monday,
November 25 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 21st 04:00
Registration Open!
Raja Muda Selangor 2024 - Pangkor to Penang
Welcome to our second online offshore race in cooperation with Raja Muda Selangor International – an 80nm trip from Pangkor north to Penang up the Malacca Strait, again in Ker 40s.
Race #1870
INFO by brainaid.de
Ker 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RMS - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
November 23 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Nov 18th 04:00
Registration Open!
Two Oceans Doublecross TIMED Race 2024
Race #1872
INFO by brainaid.de
Archer 78 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
TRQ4 - TRCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
30 November at 23:00 UTC
Race starts: Nov 17th 12:00 Registration Open!
GO TO RACE
Nassau to Bodo 2024
PRIZE: SMPF
Race# 1866
INFO from brainaid.de
Swan 65 PARTICULARS
WX updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ4 - OCCH - RTW - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Nov 11th 11:00 Registration Closed
GO TO RACE
SYC Ranking
Series
- SYC ranking
- 2024 TS
- 2024 TRQ4
- 2024 TRQ3
- 2024 TRQ2
- 2024 TRQ1
- 2024 TRCH
- 2024 TD
- 2024 SVF
- 2024 SUPerSOLer
- 2024 SSANZ
- 2024 SPRQ4
- 2024 SPRQ3
- 2024 SPRQ2
- 2024 SPRQ1
- 2024 SPRCH
- 2024 SHE
- 2024 RTW
- 2024 RMS
- 2024 PIC
- 2024 OCQ4
- 2024 OCQ3
- 2024 OCQ2
- 2024 OCQ1
- 2024 OCCH
- 2024 LOOR
- 2024 HILAT
- 2024 GWT
- 2024 DN
- 2024 CRW
- 2024 B2B
- 2024 ARQ4
- 2024 ARQ3
- 2024 ARQ2
- 2024 ARQ1
- 2024 ARCH
- 2023 TS
- 2023 TRQ4
- 2023 TRQ3
- 2023 TRQ2
- 2023 TRQ1
- 2023 TRCH
- 2023 TD
- 2023 SVS
- 2023 SUPerSOLer
- 2023 SSANZ
- 2023 SPRQ4
- 2023 SPRQ3
- 2023 SPRQ2
- 2023 SPRQ1
- 2023 SPRCH
- 2023 SHE
- 2023 RTW
- 2023 RNI
- 2023 RMS
- 2023 PIC
- 2023 OCQ4
- 2023 OCQ3
- 2023 OCQ2
- 2023 OCQ1
- 2023 OCCH
- 2023 LOOR
- 2023 DN
- 2023 ARQ4
- 2023 ARQ3
- 2023 ARQ2
- 2023 ARQ1
- 2023 ARCH
- 2022 TRQ4
- 2022 TRQ3
- 2022 TRQ2
- 2022 TRQ1
- 2022 TRCH
- 2022 TD
- 2022 Tall Ships
- 2022 SUPerSOLer
- 2022 SSANZ
- 2022 SSA
- 2022 SPRQ4
- 2022 SPRQ3
- 2022 SPRQ2
- 2022 SPRQ1
- 2022 SPRCH
- 2022 SHE
- 2022 OCQ4
- 2022 OCQ3
- 2022 OCQ2
- 2022 OCQ1
- 2022 OCCH
- 2022 NTR
- 2022 LOOR
- 2022 CTR
- 2022 ARQ4
- 2022 ARQ3
- 2022 ARQ2
- 2022 ARQ1
- 2022 ARCH
- 2021 TRQ4
- 2021 TRQ3
- 2021 TRQ2
- 2021 TRQ1
- 2021 TRCH
- 2021 TD
- 2021 Tall Ships
- 2021 SYCQ4
- 2021 SYCQ3
- 2021 SYCQ2
- 2021 SYCQ1
- 2021 SYCCH
- 2021 SUPerSOLer
- 2021 SSANZ
- 2021 SPRQ4
- 2021 SPRQ3
- 2021 SPRQ2
- 2021 SPRQ1
- 2021 SPRCH
- 2021 Shetland
- 2021 PAC6
- 2021 OCQ4
- 2021 OCQ3
- 2021 OCQ2
- 2021 OCQ1
- 2021 OCCH
- 2021 ESRW
- 2020 TSE
- 2020 TSA
- 2020 TRQ4
- 2020 TRQ4
- 2020 TRQ3
- 2020 TRQ2
- 2020 TRQ1
- 2020 TRCH
- 2020 Tasman Double
- 2020 SYCQ4
- 2020 SYCQ3
- 2020 SYCQ2
- 2020 SYCQ1
- 2020 SYCCH
- 2020 SUPerSOLer
- 2020 SSANZ
- 2020 SRQ4
- 2020 SRQ3
- 2020 SRQ2
- 2020 SRQ1
- 2020 SPRCH
- 2020 Shetland
- 2020 RTW
- 2020 RNI
- 2020 Odyssey
- 2020 OCQ4
- 2020 OCQ3
- 2020 OCQ2
- 2020 OCQ1
- 2020 OCCH
- 2020 A3
- 2019 TRQ4
- 2019 TRQ3
- 2019 TRQ2
- 2019 TRQ1
- 2019 TRCH
- 2019 Tasman Double
- 2019 Tall Ships
- 2019 SYCQ4
- 2019 SYCQ3
- 2019 SYCQ2
- 2019 SYCQ1
- 2019 SYCCH
- 2019 SUPerSOLer
- 2019 SSANZ
- 2019 SRQ4
- 2019 SRQ3
- 2019 SRQ2
- 2019 SRQ1
- 2019 SPRCH
- 2019 Shetland
- 2019 Round New Zealand
- 2019 OCQ4
- 2019 OCQ3
- 2019 OCQ2
- 2019 OCQ1
- 2019 OCCH
- 2018 TRQ4
- 2018 TRQ3
- 2018 TRQ2
- 2018 TRQ1
- 2018 TRCH
- 2018 Tasman Double
- 2018 Tall Ships
- 2018 SUPSOL
- 2018 SSANZ Triple
- 2018 SRQ4
- 2018 SRQ3
- 2018 SRQ2
- 2018 SRQ1
- 2018 SPRCH
- 2018 Shetland
- 2018 Shackleton Challenge
- 2018 OCQ4
- 2018 OCQ3
- 2018 OCQ2
- 2018 OCQ1
- 2018 OCCH
- 2018 40CH
- 2017 TS RDV
- 2017 TRQ4
- 2017 TRQ3
- 2017 TRQ2
- 2017 TRQ1
- 2017 TRCH
- 2017 Tasman Double
- 2017 Tall Ships
- 2017 SWR
- 2017 SUPSOL
- 2017 SSANZ Triple
- 2017 SSANZ RNI
- 2017 SPRR3
- 2017 SPRR2
- 2017 SPRR1
- 2017 SPRCH
- 2017 Red Dot
- 2017 OCQ4
- 2017 OCQ3
- 2017 OCQ2
- 2017 OCQ1
- 2017 OCCH
- 2017 40CQ3&4
- 2017 40CQ1&2
- 2016 TRQ4
- 2016 TRQ3
- 2016 TRQ2
- 2016 TRQ1
- 2016 TRCH
- 2016 Tasman Double
- 2016 Tall Ships
- 2016 SUPSOL
- 2016 SSANZ Triple
- 2016 SRQ4
- 2016 SRQ3
- 2016 SRQ2
- 2016 SRQ1
- 2016 SPRCH
- 2016 RTWR
- 2016 OCQ4
- 2016 OCQ3
- 2016 OCQ2
- 2016 OCQ1
- 2016 OCCH
- 2016 Corporate Open Gold
- 2016 A3
- 2015 TRQ4
- 2015 TRQ3
- 2015 TRQ2
- 2015 TRQ1
- 2015 TRCH
- 2015 Tasman Double
- 2015 Tall Ships
- 2015 SYQ4
- 2015 SYQ3
- 2015 SYQ2
- 2015 SYQ1
- 2015 SYCCH
- 2015 SUPSOL
- 2015 SSANZ Triple
- 2015 SRQ4
- 2015 SRQ3
- 2015 SRQ2
- 2015 SRQ1
- 2015 SPRCH
- 2015 OCQ4
- 2015 OCQ3
- 2015 OCQ2
- 2015 OCQ1
- 2015 OCCH
- 2015 Aegean Rally
- 2014 Timed Races Championship
- 2014 Tasman Double
- 2014 Tall Ships
- 2014 SYC Championship
- 2014 SSANZ Trio
- 2014 SSANZ RNI
- 2014 Sprints Championship
- 2014 Scandinavian Tour
- 2014 Round The World Race
- 2014 Ocean Championship
- 2014-2015 Sailonline World Race
- 2013 Tall Ships
- 2013 SYC Championship
- 2013 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2013 Capt Anderson
- 2012 W Australia Regatta
- 2012 Tall Ships
- 2012 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2012 RNZ Two Handed
- 2012 Global Challenge
- 2012 Ecker Cup
- 2012 Black Sea
- 2012 A3
- 2011 Vancouver Island
- 2011 Tasman Double
- 2011 SSANZ B&G Simrad
- 2011 SOL Global Challenge
- 2011 SJORA Series
- 2011 Scandinavian Tour
- 2011 Round North Island
- 2011 Asian Sprints
- 2011-2012 SOL World Race
- 2010 Tasman Double
- 2010 Ouzo Rally
- 2010 Iberian Tour
- 2010 Auckland Regional
- 2009 French SOLo
- 2009 Bosphore - Bretagne
- 2008 SYCC
- 2008 -2013 SYC Week Race Championship
- 2008 -2013 SYC Week-End Race Championship
- 2008 -2013 SYC Ocean Race Championship
- 2008-2009 Sailonline Ocean Race
- 2004 LOOR
Mobile Client
SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!