Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Board » Flag Officers » Rules and Decisions » “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.

Page: 1 2 3 4 Next

Posted by
JB


Users avatar

Posts
305
Registered at
2013-03-07 08:54:34
2016-12-21 10:14:43 - “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
Richard and all,

Good morning.

Finally, some light?
Well, I would like to have some extra knowledge on this “Clause 4” amendment to the SOL Rules.
Can you please disclose it?

Even don’t knowing if ex-SYC members are eligible and/or can contribute with suggestions to the SOL Rules, I have the following proposal:

Inclusion of the ISAF rule #69 in SOL rules with the necessary alterations/adaptations.

ISAF link: sailing.org/...

Thank you and a
Big Hug.

João / psail


--- Last Edited by kroppyer-admin at 2016-12-22 11:19:52 ---
Sail Fair.
Posted by
Alexandre


Users avatar

Posts
15
Registered at
2012-02-08 17:10:51
2016-12-22 01:21:46 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
For information, Rule 69 deals with "bad behaviour". More: yachtingnz.org.nz/...

--- Last Edited by kroppyer-admin at 2016-12-22 11:22:20 ---
=== Navegare Necesse ===
Posted by
JB


Users avatar

Posts
305
Registered at
2013-03-07 08:54:34
2016-12-22 08:37:01 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
Good morning all.

Meanwhile ISAF changed the above mentioned link to:

sailing.org/...

João / psail


________
kroppyer: cleaned up the links


--- Last Edited by kroppyer-admin at 2016-12-22 11:21:33 ---
Sail Fair.
Posted by
WIN


Users avatar

Posts
356
Registered at
2009-07-09 23:32:07
2016-12-23 21:09:51 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
Hi ;)

1) Rule 69 of ISAF rules has been specifically mentioned in each Championship NOR since 2014, and it is so in the 2017 ones just published as well.

2) As the SRR revision will become valid from January the 1st , and present edition is still valid , it has been decided to publish the new one only a few days before the end of 2016. ( likely tomorrow ).

Stay tuned !! ;)

SOL Coordinator
Posted by
JB


Users avatar

Posts
305
Registered at
2013-03-07 08:54:34
2016-12-29 12:39:40 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
The new SRR rules (2017).

It was introduced recently a new paragraph to the SRR aka as the “Clause 4”, here transcribed:

“4. 3rd Party Software

With effect from 1st January 2017, the use of 3rd Party software to send, edit or delete commands to a boat while racing is only permitted when both of the following conditions are satisfied:

a) The commands are issued by the skipper, a team member or a boat-sitter.
b) The commands are sent to the server as soon as possible after being initiated.

Where, following a protest from a competitor in that race or from SRC, a skipper is suspected of breaching this rule the matter shall be investigated by SRC. If a breach is considered to be possible then the race results will be declared “PENDING” and the “PROTEST PROCEDURE” described below will be carried out.

Access to the SOL server may be offered to investigate the allegation; this will be conducted by authorized technicians who will provide an expert written report to both parties and the protest committee prior to any hearing on their findings.”, (end of transcription).

Immediately I had some doubts about the interpretation and full extent of ” b)” item.

“b) The commands are sent to the server as soon as possible after being initiated.”.

Something is escaping me, because boat commands (or, boat steering actions) “after being initiated” and “as soon as possible”, are somehow redundant actions.

You can only initiate a boat command - by means of an immediate action (ok, there’s the ping delay) or by delayed actions (aka “DC’s”) - if you send it (individual or a series of commands) to the SOL server.
The moment you sent the command(s) the ASAP is already happening.

Second.Two questions to SRC.
If I have a 3rd party software that automatically tracks the others boats and, also automatically reacts to their changes, is this forbidden, or not, by this new SRR “Clause 4”?

If not, does SRC intend to ban it, or not?

Thank you.

João / psail
Sail Fair.
Posted by
sol


Users avatar

Posts
298
Registered at
2008-08-14 11:08:14
2016-12-29 19:19:34 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
gone

--- Last Edited by sol at 2017-12-22 16:05:50 ---
Posted by
kroppyer


Users avatar

Posts
347
Registered at
2010-02-05 15:25:55
2016-12-29 23:40:09 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
As one of people responsible for clause 4, let me give some explanation:

João: item (b): when the user gives 3rd party software a command to send to the server, the 3rd party software must do so immediately. The software may not decide itself when it sends the command to the server, nor may the user tell the software when it must send the command to the server. (Note: there is a difference between "sent to the server" and "executed": a delayed command can be send to the server immediately after the user enters the command, but only be executed at the time the user intended to.)

What software is allowed, what software is not?
- routers are allowed: they are not software that send commands (should you have a router that does send commands to sol, then it may only send those commands directly after a human (authorised to steer the boat) gives the router instruction to do so.)
- brainaid's DC editor is allowed: there may be some delay between the user giving the software the instruction to send the commands, but this delay is as short as possible. The software does not make a decision when to send the commands, it sends the commands the first possible moment after the user tells it to.
- WxInspector: doesn't send commands, this rule does not apply
- hmm's sollog: doesn't send commands, this rules does not apply
- SPINNACER is partially allowed: all except the autopilot is allowed. You may use SPINNACER, as long as you never activate the autopilot. This is because the autopilot chooses itself (without human intervention) when to send commands to the server
- Some "follow boat X" software: not allowed: the software sends commands without a human telling it to.
- Kipper's bbq rescue tool: partially allowed: boatsitting applies, during one race, only one person may rescue you.
Posted by
sol


Users avatar

Posts
298
Registered at
2008-08-14 11:08:14
2016-12-30 10:42:49 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
gone

--- Last Edited by sol at 2017-12-22 16:06:39 ---
Posted by
kroppyer


Users avatar

Posts
347
Registered at
2010-02-05 15:25:55
2016-12-30 13:53:02 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
Clause 4 simply limits the sending of commands by 3rd party programs: in simple words: a human allowed to steer the boat needs to instruct the software to send the command. The software may not decide on its own when to send a command and certainly not what command to send.

This should ban all bots, autopilots, and other software that takes over human decisions, without affecting any other software.

Certainly there may be software that is unwanted be some/most people that is still allowed within the rules, but I am fully convinced that this rules bans all unwanted ways of sending commands (i.e. the ones not directly coming form a human).

There may be other ways 3rd party software can be unwanted (spamming chat or whatever), but these
(1) have been permitted last year(s) as well, so at least things don't get worse
(2) do not affect the courses of boats while racing

I hope you see that this rule is a very good and essential step in regulating 3rd party software.
Posted by
JB


Users avatar

Posts
305
Registered at
2013-03-07 08:54:34
2016-12-30 14:46:19 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
Viva Huib and all.

Thank you so much for bringing light on this subject.

Your SPINNACER and Andrew’s tools were never a problem, at least in my opinion.
IRL we use autopilots, radar, AIS, depth devices, namely, all with alarm settings.
That’s pacific and above all, for the safety of boats and people.

As previously discussed the real issue is the “robot sailboat” that automatically collects the (should be private) boats live data - or directly from the Server and/or using the hmm’s data center - and, automatically reacts accordingly to the others sailing boats paths.

The first step to stop/avoid this unfair “robot” sailing is simply ruling it out, i.e., ban any type of software that runs with this purpose.
The second measure is to avoid private and precise boat data being public disclosed, as it is obvious that without data input the “robot” software is meaningful.

There’s no other way to say it.
The boat data public availability, noble in principle but, bad in results, brings situations like the one you can easily verify in the two attached PDF files. They speak for themselves.

The data contained in those files were collected for two pairs of opponent boats during the RTW Leg 2, during the Cape Horn approach.

The immediate response and behavior for two of the four boats, at least, can only be explained by two ways:

1 - The use of above mentioned “robot” software, or;
2 - The use of the hmm’s live data center.

That is the reason why I left psail in the dock and also for some skippers opting for “different” paths during races - they know well what is happening.

Happy New Year all.

João / psail
Sail Fair.
Attachments

Page: 1 2 3 4 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

SSANZ Round North Island Race 2026 - Leg 3

Leg Three of our Round North Island Series, in partnership with SSANZ, keeps the pressure on! From Cook Strait, the fleet turns north for a 187 nautical mile passage up the east coast to Napier. It may look like a quick overnighter, but shifting coastal winds and the ever-lively Cook Strait demand sharp focus. In our responsive Sun Fast 3600s, a proven short-handed racer and powerful downwind performer, tactical decisions and precise timing will make all the difference!

The start time for this race may change at short notice to align with the real race. The confirmed start date and time will be announced via an in-race “L” flag message — Please monitor race communications closely.
Race #2013
INFO by brainaid.de
Sun Fast 3600 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RNI - SUPBUD - SYC
Race starts: Mar 08th 22:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Dyer Dhow Derby 2026


Most winter weekends, SOLer wsguerin and his friends at the Mamaroneck Frostbite Association venture forth on Long Island Sound to race Dyer Dhows, originally designed as WWII tenders. Indestructible little boats, great comradeship and serious short sharp races of 10 to 20 minutes duration. Sailonline now invites you to experience the joys of the Dhow in winter, virtually, by way of a slightly longer 14nm race: from Mamaroneck to Execution Rocks, over to the Gong Buoy and back to Mamaroneck. And if the wind pipes up to 20kn and beyond, you'll find SOL's customized polar will plane, rather than nosedive!
Race #2017
INFO by brainaid.de
Dyer Dhow PARTICULARS
NAM_AWIP WX Updates:
0245 / 0845 / 1445 / 2045
Ranking: SPQ1 - SPCH - SYC
Race starts: Mar 07th 13:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

South China Sea Race 2026


Welcome all to the South China Sea and a virtual chase in Cookson 50’s of the Rolex South China Sea fleet, racing 650nm – as the local red-footed booby flies – from Hong Kong to Subic Bay on the southern tip of The Philippines’ Luzon Island. Chances are it will be a fast downwind ride, so see how you can keep up with the real-life fleet which we hope to be able to follow on our monitors.
Race #2016
INFOby brainaid.de
Cookson 50 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SUPBUD - SYC
Race starts: Mar 04th 03:20 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

SSANZ Round North Island Race 2026 - Leg 2

Leg Two of our Round North Island Series is where the real challenge begins. After Mangonui, our SOLers face a demanding 491nm passage around the top of the North Island and down the rugged west coast toward Cook Strait. Long miles, exposed waters, and relentless tactical choices will test every SOLer. In our powerful Sun Fast 3600s, a proven short-handed performer and true downwind flyer, endurance, timing, and smart routing will be key to success!

The start time for this race may change at short notice to align with the real race. The confirmed start date and time will be announced via an in-race “L” flag message — Please monitor race communications closely.
Race #2012
INFO by brainaid.de
Sun Fast 3600 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: RNI - SUPBUD - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Monday,
March 9 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Mar 02nd 21:00 Registration Closed
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Iceland to the Falklands 2026

Welcome to an all-new route, the first of three Round the 'Old World' of Europe, Africa, Australia and Asia. To give each leg of the ROW a bit of length we'll try to hug the coasts as little as possible, so starting in Iceland our first leg of the series, which will also be the final leg of our Quarter 1 Ocean Championships takes us 7200nm to the Falklands, the full length of the Atlantic end to end. To make sure we'll get it done within the month we'll be sailing our Maxi Trimaran.
Race #2010
INFO by brainaid.de
Maxi Trimaran PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ1 - ROW - OCCH - SYC
Race starts: Mar 02nd 11:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

San Diego to Puerto Vallarta 2026

Welcome to California! Established in 1953 this 1000-mile run from San Diego to Puerto Vallarta on the Mexican Riviera has become a tradition and online as well the tradition strengthens with this the fourth time Sailonline is making the race available to virtual sailors. Let's see how our virtual SC70s perform against the real fleet!
Race #2015
INFO by brainaid.de
Santa Cruz 70 Particulars
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SUPBUD - SYC
Race starts: Feb 28th 20:00 Registration Open!
▶ Flash
GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

  1. Sailonline Yacht Club Member KaSToR
  2. Sailonline Yacht Club Member WRmirekd
  3. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rumskib
  4. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CriticalHippo
  5. Sailonline Yacht Club Member vida
  6. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Sax747
  7. Sailonline Yacht Club Member CollegeFund
  8. Sailonline Yacht Club Member rafa
  9. Sailonline Yacht Club Member Panpyc
  10. Sailonline Yacht Club Member sassy63

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client