Sailonline.org - Online Sailing

Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Tweets by @sailonline

Board » Flag Officers » Rules and Decisions » “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.

Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2016-12-30 16:10:12 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	João, I hear you. I don't agree completely on some details, but in general: yes, to make some unwanted software impossible, availability of data needs to be limited. This needs to be addressed at sol's side (the server), and may have large (negative) consequences, but eventually, it is the way to go. For now however, the only legal way to follow a boat, is to have a human present at all times. Software may read the data from other boats (it is available), but it may not send commands by itself, a human needs to to this. It may still be possible to have software take over the human role here, but at least this is plain illegal from 2017 on.
Posted by sol Posts 296 Registered at 2008-08-14 11:08:14	2016-12-30 18:19:27 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	gone --- Last Edited by sol at 2017-12-22 16:07:34 ---
Posted by JB Posts 305 Registered at 2013-03-07 08:54:34	2016-12-31 14:22:55 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Viva Huib and all. Again, thank you for your comments on this subject. It seems an (immediate) impossibility to SOL engine crypt boat’s data. Off course, if this was already implemented we wouldn’t be here by now, at least discussing this subject. Concerning this issue, the actual SOL policy, to which I profoundly disagree and already explained why, still is: A - To allow during races boats live data public disclosure; B - No interest in return to the former status of data public disclosure only in TS periods of 1 hr. Anyhow, as SOL policy and also Markku’s one won’t change, I have the following suggestions: 1 - Access to the http://sol.hmm.iki.fi/sollog/races/ only by means of COMPULSORY LOGGING using the same SOL boat credentials per boat (user name/”boat name” and password); 2 - Live information (pls see Note under) of all SOL boats LOGGED to each running race live data; 3 - Live information of all SOL boats (pls see Note under) that WERE LOGGED to each running race live data; 4 - For each boat, and for clarity purposes let’s say, boat “A”, live information (pls see Note under) of all the boats that ARE ACCESING that particular boat “A” live data information. Note: Name of the boat and time period of boats data collecting. If someone is getting my live boat data info, I’m entitled and have the right to know who is. Implement this actions and I assure you some interesting surprises on the upcoming races. A Big Hug João / psail Sail Fair.
Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2016-12-31 22:57:29 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	It may be possible to break the rule (which is why it's a rule, if it's impossible to break the rule (like "you may not go faster than the boatspeed given in the polar"), there would be no need to write it down), but breaking the rule can be detected and has serious consequences. The rule can be enforced, but at this stage it requires manual investigation. Just like the boatsitting rules. It may be possible to have multiple boatsitters, but it is still illegal, and when we find out you'll be disqualified for the race. It may be possible to have self steering software, but it is still illegal, and when we find out you'll be disqualified for the race (at the least, it may be worse) ------ You have to understand, this new rule is not a direct response to the problems with having live and precise data, it is not meant to target this one specific problem, it is meant to target a wider range of (potential) problems, it bans all software that steer the boat without human intervention. This is not sol's final solution to the problems with live and precise data, if it is even a solution to this problem. Different solution(s) will need to come to solve this specific problem, solutions like JB is describing. --- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2017-01-02 00:51:52 ---
Posted by outlaw Posts 33 Registered at 2012-06-01 13:37:55	2017-01-01 22:32:45 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Happy new year to y'all. quick thoughts, again I really don't share Joao's concerns... 1. All I see in Joao's PDFs is boats sailing VMG on TWA which is perfectly normal. Plus some noise from hmm's weather being sourced differently. 2. If you want to show foul play, use "compare stats". Robot sailing should be really obvious on that one. 3. Again I don't see how data logging would be particularly useful. Simply because pretty much everything can be easily extrapolated. 4. And amazing tactical analytics would be effort. Time spent on the go-fast problem, worth it. Monumental time spent on letting the computer do tactics? I wouldn't, benefits would be dubious, and tactics is the gameplay for me anyhow. 5. One could ask whether the forecast wind should be absolute... I say it should, because that's the requirement for set-and-forget router use, and having actual wind different from forecast would make a (now illegal) steering robot necessary. 6. One could ask what's the difference between follow and cover... Cover is a legit tactic, and to follow is frowned upon, but where is the difference? There is a difference, but it's somewhat ill defined.
Posted by JB Posts 305 Registered at 2013-03-07 08:54:34	2017-01-03 18:26:59 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Viva Huib and outlaw, Good morning. New Year and old problems. For Huib. Is it possible to establish the logging procedure to hmm’s live data as mentioned in my previous com? For outlaw. Do you ever asked yourself why IRL is forbidden to have live access to the other boats data - even with different boats in the same fleet, not mention with One Design classes? Talking about tactics. You missed (as you don’t n know) the boats relative positions context where/when the RTW live race data was picked, meaning the unique “TWA” conclusion is … somehow reductive. Knowing that someone is “looking” to your boat, not to mention, monitoring her, is different than not knowing it. Easily you wonder why. Anyhow, extrapolations on boat data are also different from getting live precise infos from those same boats. To better feel this issues, please try to make some SOL Sprint races where top 10 arrivals are measured in a few seconds. Try it, and then we can talk again. A Big Hug to both João / psail Sail Fair.
Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2017-01-04 00:54:01 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Of course you can force users to log in with sol credential before the get access to hmm's sollog, but - hmm might not have the time to implement it - everyone can use sol (or any other anonymous boat) - computer savy people don't need hmm's sollog to get the data if you would log who gets the data from the sol server in the first place, you'll see that everyone who's racing gets your boat data. Most people just won't look at the numbers but at the graphical representation of them. I think the better option would be for sol (the actual source of the data) to only supply data from other boats that is less precise: - reduce update intervals, - reduce precision of course, - reduce precision of position. Some may be easy to implement, some may be hard to implement, some may have side effects, not all may be needed to achieve the goal.
Posted by JB Posts 305 Registered at 2013-03-07 08:54:34	2017-01-04 14:34:41 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Viva Huib and all. Good afternoon. I see, and quite agree with you. The former update time (1 hour) was correct and enough, not the actual “almost” live and public data we have. So, some random induced “noise” on the HDG and BS data (I don’t think the boats positions needs to be “worked”) and increasing the actual period (1 minute) for the boats data update, could be an acceptable provisory solution - at least 15 minutes - if it is (?) doable. A Big Hug João / psail Sail Fair.
Posted by sol Posts 296 Registered at 2008-08-14 11:08:14	2017-01-06 19:40:22 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	gone --- Last Edited by sol at 2017-12-22 16:08:23 ---
Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2017-01-06 23:46:53 - Re: “Clause 4” and ISAF rule #69.
	Is the flash-client only receiving and the sol-server indiscriminating sending every 20 seconds all data? No. Would it not be possible to build a communication-initiating query into the flash-swf-client on which sol-server starts sending the data only to that logged in client. Not logged in? no data are send about this 'boat'. This is already the case. Once an hour all data is broadcasted to all like it is done now. That's not how it works now. It would imply a site like hmm's "sol race data centre" would not function anymore. Being logged in as sol counts.

Page: Previous 1 2 3 4 Next

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

Manilla to Calbayog 2024

After six years, we welcome you to the race created by sassy63 for the second time. He takes us to the Philippines to race around islands on a 380 nm course. We sail the Italia 14.98 and in Calbayog we'll enjoy our well-deserved Palatan dish and drink it with San Miguel.
Race #1803
INFO from brainaid.de
Italia 14.98 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
ARQ2 - ARCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Apr 22nd 17:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Jakob's Birthday BBQ Race 2024

Sailonline had two founders and Jakob, the more senior of the two, has his birthday in April which we always like to celebrate with a race through the Stockholm Archipelago from Revengegrundet Lighthouse to his mooring at Baggensfjärden. Traditionally also, like other celebrations this time of year, this feast has been “moveable”, so on this occasion we will be racing on a Wednesday in one of our latest high-performance 40-footers, the Carkeek 40. Please join us then for this always tricky 30nm race. Grattis på födelsedagen Jakob!
Race #1794
INFO by brainaid.de
Carkeek 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC
RACE CLOSE: Wednesday,
April 24 at 2300 UTC.
Race starts: Apr 20th 14:00 Registration Closed

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Melbourne to Osaka Prelude 2024

Welcome once again to what these days is Sailonline’s almost annual virtual Melbourne to Osaka Yacht Race. In real life, this double-handed 5500 nm race between these two sister cities, one deep in the southern hemisphere, the other high in the northern hemisphere, is run every four to five years, and is planned to be held again in 2025, so this race is a Prelude in partnership with the Melbourne Osaka Cup 2025 organising committee collaborating with the Ocean Racing Club of Victoria (ORCV), and the Sandringham (SYC) and Osaka Hokko (OHYC) yacht clubs. On this occasion, we’ll be racing the well-known First 40, a popular size of boat for a long-distance double-handed race. With the doldrums unavoidably lying across the track, you can expect to be at virtual sea for at least a month!
Race #1669
INFO by brainaid.de
First 40 Particulars
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: SYC
Race starts: Apr 20th 00:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

St Nazaire Chasse TIMED Race 2024

Welcome to a "chasse" (hunt) from St. Nazaire to La Baule on the west coast of France! This race was designed by SOLer FR_flouflou in 2010. The KER 40 was introduced to SOL in 2016 by SOLer psail, and the Sol-KER was a welcome addition to SOL’s fleet of 40- footers, as it was to the IRL Ker fleet of eponymous - like KERonimo, KukuKERchu and Ice BreaKER. This is a TIMEDrace, so you may RE-REGISTER HERE to try again, after finishing a run. You will have 13 days and 11 hours to show your skill and decision making after the race opens.
Race #1797
INFOby brainaid.de
Ker 40 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking:
TRQ2 - TRCH - SUPSOL - SYC
RACE CLOSE: Saturday,
27 April at 23:00 UTC
Race starts: Apr 14th 12:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Cape Town to Auckland 2024

Welcome to the second leg of this Round The World series 2024. It's also the April edition of this year's ocean race championship. The course is the same as the one sailed in 2023, but this year we sail the iconic Swan 65, as suggested in the concluding RTW race last year.
Prepare yourselves for an epic 30-day journey, navigating through the unpredictable waters of the South Seas. It's essential to take care of provisioning to ensure a smooth and enjoyable race experience. With the longer duration, we anticipate plenty of opportunities for camaraderie, competition, and unforgettable memories.
PRIZE: SMPF
Race# 1789
INFO from brainaid.de
Swan 65 PARTICULARS
WX updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ2 - RTW - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Apr 01st 11:00 Registration Closed

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client